Thursday, October 29, 2009

4th Hour Fahrenheit Liveblog/Fishbowl pgs 91-127

140 comments:

  1. There are probably machines to do the parenting for you with all the technology they have.

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  2. I think a friend is just considered someone you can actually talk to and laugh with.

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  3. A friend is someone who listens to what Montag has to say. I don't even think you can consider Mildred a friend, even in the begininning. People who have deep conversations with each other.

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  4. Zach i think that is an interesting point.

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  5. I do not think that Beatty and Montag were friends because Beatty was Montag's superior and he respected Beatty more than they were actually friends.

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  6. In this story they do not call anybody their friends, there are just people they know.

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  7. I don't think Beatty was Montag's friend becuase no matter how mad you were at a friend or how mean to you they were to you, you would never kill them.

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  8. I don't think that Beatty is Montag's friend because Montag seems more afraid of Beatty than friendly with him.

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  9. In this book, a friend is merely a person who you have talked to at least one in your life in a positive manner. If Montag talked to the lady he ended up burning, that's not a "friend", but if he said hello to someone on the subway, it would be considered a friend. No one is really more than acquaintences(sp) in this book.

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  10. There aren't really that many true relationships in the book because everyone does things technologically. Like how Montag and Mildred interacted even when they were married. They hardly knew each other and were husband and wife so how can there be smaller relationships like friendship?

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  11. I think in this story friendship is not really real friendship. I'm sure Montag thought that he and Mildrid were friends, but then she was willing to turn him and and he relized he didn't really love her. So it may just be someone who you talk to every once in a while or someone who you see. A friend in this book might just be an aquantince in our world.

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  12. I think in this society they dont really have friends. its hard to figure out how much you can trust a person that is controlled by tecnology. they dont really know each other, and so by out standards, i dont feel that they really HAVE friends. kind of like how can you really consider milderd's 'friend's' additude toward their husbands as love...

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  13. Both Matts are right when talking about the difference between friends today and in Farenheight 451. Today's friends are close and spend a lot of time together while Farenheight 451's friends aren't very close at all. But to answer Matt's question, I don't think Beatty and Montag are friends. They have too many differences between them.

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  14. I agree that Beatty is not Montag's friend because friends don't force friends to burn their own houses.

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  15. I agree with Ben when he says that Beatty and Montag weren't friends. I think that they believe in the same thing but Beatty didn't want to take action like Montag which is why he let Montag just kill him. Beatty Never fought back.

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  16. I do think that Montag and Beatty were friends. They were not close friends but they were comfortable with each other and agreed in ideas until Montag discovered the treasures of books, which completely changed his opinion of almost everything.

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  17. I agree with Ben. Beatty is Montags superior and they seem more on the aquaintance level rather than a friend level. They never had a conversation that seemed personal, but maybe that is their society.

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  18. In their society I think that most people don't have a good definition of a friend, they probably think that people we would consider as aquaintences as friends.

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  19. I think that friends in this novel are kind of non existant in a way. They aren't really friends, I see them as aquaintances, that are there to communicate with once in a while. In this society friends are sometimes the most important thing in someones life, some can confide absolutely everything in a friend.

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  20. In this society, people do not really have a very strong relationship with anyone, so the term friendship would be used very loosely. I believe that Faber is more of what we would think of when talking about friends in this book, for he is more the demonstration o.f what our friends are like. Other than Faber, I don't think there are any true representations of friends in this novel

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  21. I would consider his death suicide beacause he let Montag kill him. Beatty didn't even try to fight back.

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  22. Don't you think by the way Beatty acted towards Montag, he wanted to die???

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  23. I think that Beatty's death was suicide because if he didn't want to die then he would of stopped Montag from burning him. Beatty was tempting Montag to kill him so that makes me think that he wanted to die.

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  24. All conversations that people had tended to be surface-deep and not very intellectual or personal. Everything they say is basically small talk, which can help you meet people, but never really get to know them.

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  25. i think it was a murder. montag did kill beaty--no matter if he did try to move out of the way or not. i think that in a way montag was trying to make himself feel okay by telling himself that beatty wanted to die.

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  26. Good point Aaron but in this world I don't think that anyone really gets personal because of how shut out they are of reality and natural feelings.

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  27. I do not think Beatty and MOntag were friends, because I don't think if you are in your right mind you would kill a friend, or even just someone you know.

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  28. Yeah Mrs. Moritz. That's why I think it was suicide because he didn't care when Montag killed him.

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  29. I think Montag was worried about what Beatty was going to do to him and he acted really quickly without thinking about what the consequences would be. He didn't kill him because he hated him, he just killed him for self defense almost.

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  30. I liked Evan's comment about how Beatty's death was assisted suicide. Beatty did nothing to stop his murder.

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  31. I'm not sure if Beatty wanted to die, but I think he was more just wanting to see how far Montag would go. He just wanted to see if Montag really could go as far as to kill him.

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  32. I think that Beatty wanted to die. I think he felt that Beatty felt that it would come back to him because Beatty is his superior. I think he felt that they would think there was connection between him and Montag's book steeling.

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  33. i think she felt a connection to it, like it related to her life in a way. maybe. becuase the poem was talking about lost love--right? and she didn't really love her husband and montag had pointed this out to her earlier...

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  34. What does anyone really have to live for in this world? Maybe Beatty just felt alone and fed up with how everything changed. No one has real emotions or fun.

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  35. I think she cried because she was doing something illegal.

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  36. I agree with Riley because a friend is usually someone you like or have a strog relationship with and you would never let the thought of killing a friend cross your mind.

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  37. At Mrs. Moritz, well I don't think its so much that Beatty wanted to die but more so that in their society they don't value life as much as we do so Beatty didn't really care if he died because he doesn't even value his own life.

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  38. I think that Beatty had wanted to die. I believe that Beatty has been torn apart inside for a while and he just wanted it all to end. I think he was torn apart between good and evil because I think that he is almost two sided. He is so knowledgable that it seems that he would have had to read books, and if he still remembers what he read that typically means someone enjoyed. Beatty's other face is him being the top fireman. The one who loves to see books burn.

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  39. I think it would've been suicide if Montag had already had the fire gun thing going and Beatty stepped into it. Since Montag pulled the trigger with the intend of killing, it was murder.

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  40. I think that it may have been a suicide, because it seems like people in the book don't have a sense of life and death. When people die they ship them off fast and no one really mourns the death. If you can't mourn the death, can you enjoy life?

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  41. I think that Beatty wanted to die, he just did not realize it. He thought that Montag would not kill him, but deep down he knew what would happen.

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  42. I disagree Nathan, she was crying because when her mind heard the words being spoken it didn't know how to react to the eloquence of poetry so she cried because of the poem.

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  43. I agree with Reid. I am positive Beatty has read a book before because he is knowledgeable when he goes on the tyrade about books.

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  44. @ Sidney
    They don't have real emotions but they do have emotions. This was show on the first line of the book when he says it felt good to burn. He says that that is what he likes. That seems like an emotion prior to win he opened his eyes. Maybe he just trained to feel that way about burning. I think that they for fun and done know what they live for. Can you think of a reason why we live?

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  45. Personally, I think that Beatty had been reading books and used his job as the fire chief to hide behind. I think he had gotten to a point that he couldn't deal.

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  46. I think he wanted to die beacuse he figured out he had done the wrong thing. He was guilty and gave into what he had finally figured out what was wrong. He wanted to burn like he knew the books were being destroyed.

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  47. I don't necessarily think that it was suicide, I just think that Beatty didn't really think that Montag would follow through with killing him. Beatty had started to feel bad about the burnings, so Beatty just wanted to see if he had the guts when it really mattered. By the time Beatty could've realized he was about to be murdered, it was too late and he was alreay almost dead.

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  48. I think that Beatty knid of wanted to die, but didn't really believe that Montag would kill him. I also think that he still believed that burning was a good thing up untill he died because he still defended it and got angry at Montag, right up untill he died.

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  49. I think that in the future Montag and Faber will cross paths again.

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  50. I agree with Mrs. Moritz, Beatty's and Montag's experiences with books seem similiar. Montag finally told Mildred that he had books because he just couln't stand living a lie anymore, maybe this is the same with Beatty.

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  51. i like what shaffer said. i agree that he didn't think that montag would have the guts to kill him, but montag did. i think that maybe he did want to die, deep down, but i also think he just had way to much confidence in montag's squemishness or whatnot.

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  52. I agree that Beatty had been reading books and using his own job for a cover up. He probably saw hiself in Montag and it could've pushed him over the edge. He might have felt like it was his fault because he read books, and so did Montag, but now everything Montag has is gone and the guilt had the potentail to overwhelm Beatty.

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  53. I think the hound will come back, it just seems that it wouldn't be that easy to get away. THere is always the evil force in every story that tries to knock down the main character.

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  54. Exactly Nate. There is no doubt in my mind that Beatty has read books before. He rambles on about various books that only intellectual scholars would know.

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  55. Maybe Beatty never talked with anyone about the books and went crazy. That is why Montag needs Faber.

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  56. Let's talk about the conversation the women had about electing a president. What do you think abouut it? How true is it in our society?

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  57. I think he wanted to die because, Beatty had most likely read books before this and I think that after he forced Montag to burn the books and his house that he had too much guilt to live with

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  58. I think that the government made the other candidate look bad so that everyone would vote with the good looking one. In this way they can give people a false feeling of democracy while they have total control.

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  59. I don't think it is how they look but more how they talk in our day. Some people, who are more intellectual think about the politicol aspects. I think that People go off of how fluent a persons speech is and how elegantly they talk.

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  60. In this society there is no real deep thinking. When there is no deep thinking that means people only think on the surface. If someone is only basing their thoughts on appearence than the best looking man wins regardless of his/her ideas

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  61. @malbyn i agree with you, he knows too much about books to have never read a few himself.

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  62. i think that in our society, looks play into a lot of things. i think that this society takes this to the extremes, but that we still take alot of pride in our looks and put alot of stock into them.

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  63. The role of the president is a false pretense that an actual leader exists. In this society, the president doesn't relly need to lead...except for maybe the war.

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  64. I wonder if the government actually thinks that the other uglier man who was running for president would actually have a chance at winning, probably not, so why would they even have two people running for president?

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  65. As for the president situation it made me laugh because after Obama won, my little sister announced "I knew he would win, he's much prettier than McCain." These women reminded me of that day and how so many people in that society just see everything at (pardon my repetition) surface level. They just think, "They look good, they must be a good peron!"

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  66. I don't think the president would have an advantage. Maybe with the ladies because he is good looking.

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  67. I think that people live their lives without care and could care less who the president is.

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  68. What is the war about anyways?

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  69. @Brandon. Yeah i think that because they beacame so involved in what the govt. had told them to do that they forgot how to even be a free thinker. The books showed a way to think differently and when they are lost, new ideas and thoughts are lost.

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  70. I wonder if they even know (or care) what the president even does.

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  71. I agree that people do make decisions on appearance. Like Mrs. moritz said, the U.S. is all about first impressions. People really need to consider the expression never judge a book by its cover. It is unfortunate that huge authorities are still judged by looks and not thought.

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  72. @molly. I think that they give the people two different choices to feel that they do indeed have a power over the goverment. but in reality they dont. the goverment chose thoes two people because they KNEW which one would win...

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  73. In that case it would be better if the president was just a figure head while the more intelligent people control the government.

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  74. The conversation about the president between the women is very true in many cases in our society. Many people don't pay attention to candidates' views on political issues, but rather how they look or how they present themselves. It seems as if the candidate that wins is usually more socially acceptable and more up to date with social issues. The women in the book are just basing there political decisions on appearance, not political issues.

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  75. A thought that just came to my mind is the aftermath of how the firefighters feel after burning people alive. Wouldn't that have an affect on them personally? Kind of like PTSD.

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  76. The women were talking about some canidates looking more like the president than others. Or looking like they would do a better job. I agree with what Mrs.Moritz said about likeing people on a first impression. I know that sometimes I will read the first few oages of a book, and get tired of it. And then i will just stop reading it; sometimes the book may have been good if I had not just looked over it. In this book I feel like that is all that happens. No one decides to look past what they first see. Thats why books open up our minds to more, and that is why the system in this novel needs to be broken.

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  77. Based on the information given in this book, I don't think that the president does much in society. If he does play a big role, then this is another example of the government keeping the people in the dark. They may only tell the people what they think the people needs to know.

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  78. Sidney, I think that it may affect some of them but it seems like most of them are unaffected. It is very clear that Montag has definately suffered mentally about burning someone alive. I think this lady burning herself almost triggered Montag to read the books.

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  79. I agree with EmilyM, the government seems to be neautral in this whole story. The citizens seem to be more of the political villains.

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  80. People are always saying not to judge a book by it's cover and it goes beyond books, or even people. Everything we see has magnificent outsides, but not always insides. There have been times where everyone has bought a box of candy because the packaging was nice, just to find out that the box probably tastes better than the food inside. Eveything they see if just eye candy...

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  81. I think that people sometimes can't get past people's looks and so they vote for presidents and judge people based on things like that.

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  82. Does it even matter whether one president is prettier than another, The ugliest man running could be the most intelligent and the prettiest could be the dumbest and then our society would be in jeopardy because of our decisions based on almost no information.

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  83. OOPS I meant is just eye candy NOT if just eye candy

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  84. i thought it was funny (not exactly, but i cant think of a better word to describe it...) how montag called the ladies monsters when he called them out about judgeing the prez by looks and how they talk about their husband and children.

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  85. @AaronR why are the people the political villians?? Wouldn't that be the government, because the government tell the people how to act?

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  86. @Brandon:
    You make a good point. I think that the lady killing herself with the fire made Montag "wake up" and see what they're actually doing and how wrong it is not to let people posess books.

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  87. The government tries to control the people by taking away their ability to make choices. They believe that if there was nothing to disagree on than there would be peace and happiness for every member of the community.

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  88. The poem is saying that everything is happy and good, but nobody's truly happy. they think they're happy, and they are on the surface, but if look deeper down like Montag did they will find that they really aren't happy.

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  89. I think that he chose the poem because it shows feelings and false feelings and it could most nearly go directly with the book. Almost line for line. It talks of new joy and love, which I think is like the initial liking after being opened to how the society really is.

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  90. Yeah. I think it was funny because they judged them on how hot they are. It seems a lot like our society. We judge by beauty and by actions, not by what they want or what they stand for. It seems Ray Bradbury's mind was completely correct when it came to views on elections and govts.

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  91. @EmilyM I'm just pointing out how the people seem to be making more decisions and shaping society than the government. This would make them the ones behind the evil ideas and burning people and injecting them with drugs.

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  92. @Sidney
    Do you think this is similar to what Beatty did, or is his case a totally different thing?

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  93. I do not think Mrs. Phelps is crying because of the meaning of the poem. Just because it's illegal like I said earlier.

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  94. I agree with mollie, because the way the government is in this book it doesn't looka all that bad, everyone is equeal and no one has anythign to fight about. It's a world where everything is good on the outside, but if you actualy have to live in it-not so much. Bringing up that point, if the society has nothing to fight about, what is this war?

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  95. I think the poem struck close to the heart because she realized what her life really was, and what society had turned to. Could that be why the gov't made literature illegal?

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  96. However if she is related to Micheal Phelps Maybe she uses that would give her deeper thinking abilities.

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  97. I think that it is interesting how we can talk so much about the government even though it is rarely mentioned or described in the book.

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  98. @AaronR
    In my opinion, there are a lot of people like Mildred. Mildren really doesn't make any decisions. Do you think it was ultimately the people, then, who started the whole idea of burning books?

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  99. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  100. i think this poem was kind of about something that was charished that was lost, becuase the poem said... "was once, too, at full, and round earth's shore...now all i hear its melancholy long withdrawing roar."
    and i think that maybe she saw some relivence to her life in the poem, even if she didnt completely understand it.

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  101. I agree with Matt that it just overwhelmed her that she was actually thinking. I think she may be depressed because she was actually required to think

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  102. I agree with matt Farley that the lady cried after listening to the poem because she was overwhlemed. Poetry is confusing the first time hearing it, especially something that deep. She also was prbably in shock because a person just read infront of her.

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  103. Bye, bye Beatty--Let's go back to Victoria's question--do you think that Beatty was asking to die? Was it some sort of assisted suicide?

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  104. I think that Ms. Phelps was crying for more than one reason, she was probably overwhelmed at everything that was happening and didn't quite know what to think.

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  105. I think that she is crying over the poem because I think that the thought process was to deep for her and I think she has a desire to understand the books but she didn't know how to achieve the true meaning because if you read it blankly, it means nothing.

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  106. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  107. I disagree Nate. Mrs. Phelps is crying because she is overwhelmed by the intellectual thought going on in the poem.

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  108. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  109. I do think that it was an assisted suicide. Montag killed him, but Beatty didn't fight... So you could say that it was both of their faults, not one or the other.

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  110. Does the society mold even the intellectual? People such as faber?

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  111. I was wondering if maybe Ray Bradbury just put it in the story for us to find the meaning of. It may have been put in the story for us to decide, like a deeper thinking question. I think it waws suicide only because Beatty seems defeated at the point of his death.

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  112. I do think that it was an assisted suicide because Beatty could have fought back to try and save himself but he just stayed there kind of helpless.

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  113. I think that the intellectuals realize what is going on but I think that they have just accepted what is going on in society and none of them want to risk their lives to change it

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  114. Faber was just as cowardly as anyone. He's an old man and he probably doesn't have the energy to break the law and run away from it. Also he didn't have any allies or anybody to help him untill he finds Montag and by then he's pretty much given up.

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  115. i think it wasnt assisted suicide, becuase beatty didnt tell montag to kill him, montag just did and beatty didnt move out of the way. I think that beatty didnt think that montag had it in himself to kill him.

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  116. I think they try to but are un-successful. Faber is someonoe who is so inttelectualy strong that even with all the things the govt would do, he would dtill be the ittelectual being that he has been and was as a proffesor.

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  117. I agree with rileyw, i wonder if even Ray Bradbury even knows.

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  118. Maybe fear caused her to cry? @Casey: I think that society could mold the intellectual because people tend to follow what they know. People find trends and once it becomes a big thing more and more people go with it. I'm not sure if that made sense...sorry.

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  119. @Casey W
    I believe that the intellects in society refuse to fit the mold that the government has set up for the people. People like Faber do not fit this mold, and refuse to do so. I think we could also look at Clarrise because she was somewhat intellectual and she also did not fit the perfect mold of the "normal" person.

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  120. I think that it does because people can let there feelings out, the way they used to be. I think that it forces them to change there ways and Hide in the shadows.

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  121. I think Beatty knew he was going to die, he was just daring Montag to do it. I think beatty maybe thought Montag wouldn't have the courage, bu then maybe realized he though wrong. I don't think it's assisted suicide, but a challenge towards Montag.

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  122. @Riley: I was surprised that Beatty just gave up. He seemed like someone who would keep fighting because Beatty felt so strongly about books and how much he hates them.

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  123. At emily,
    But what have they done to fight back? I think that the intellects do get molded but in a different way. They have to supress many feelings.

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  124. What would have happened to Montag if he did not kill Beatty.

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  125. wait--what IS beatty's cause if its so important that he'd die for it?

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  126. Did Beatty want Montag to escape? Maybe he wanted Montag to be able to make a difference and change their society.

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  127. i dont see how montag was threatening him, before he killed him that is...

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  128. Montag would of been arrested for occupying books and probably would of died in jail shortly there after.

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  129. @Shaffer, Montag was going to be arrested for his action. Now he will most likely be killed because he murdered Beatty.

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  130. I think Beatty didn't die for a cause. He died because he knew he was representing the wrong cause. He knew he would infiltrate the system, and by dong that he would return all people to the controlled society.

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  131. If Montag wouldn't have killed Beatty he would have ended up one of two ways:
    A) Dead
    ~OR~
    B) In Jail
    He saved himself, but at the cost at another's life.

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  132. @Casey
    I think that they don't do anything drastic, but the intellects doing nothing to be the way the government wants them to be is their way of challenging the system.

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  133. I think that maybe Beatty didnt have an important cause, but maybe he was trying to show the people what reading books does to one's mind-murder.

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  134. In the movie Iron Jawed Angels, the women suffragists are willing to starve to death to get the right to vote, this connects to maybe how Beatty was willing to die for his cause.

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  135. I think Beatty needed to die in the book, to create this kind of controversy, and make Montag a fugitive. I think that whether or not it was murder was a suicide is not actually completly relevent in the book. And either way it is murder, because if Montag had not had the flamethrower then Beatty could not have killed himself, without making it seem like he did it himself.

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  136. @Aaron But he now has the chance to continue with his plan. Maybe he will end up changing the society. He could not do that if he was arrested.

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  137. I think Beatty died for his cause as a fireman. he wanted to show the monstrousity behind books and what they caused. He set up Montag.

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  138. I agree with Ben, but what exactly is his cause? Montag clearly has a cause but I'm not so sure what Beatty's is

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