Thursday, October 29, 2009

3rd Hour Fahrenheit Liveblog/Fishbowl pgs 91-127

166 comments:

  1. I agree with Alex. I think that they are so attached to their parlor that they don't want children to distract them.

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  2. Because they don't want a burden they want to be happy. This is what the government in 451 has done to people, basically they might be causing a population decline because they want people to be happy not smart!

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  3. I think that new generations are able to think therefore they don't want to have to deal with that. It would be hard to "train" children to not question and when children question the parents have to answer and parents do not have the answer because they have never really thought. Also, the parents are given things to keep them preoccupied they don't want to deal with children.

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  4. The people don't want to have kids since it detracts from their lives ant to hav

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  5. Agreed with Alex, they have no experience about taking care of kids. They say they're in love but they're not.

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  6. I think they say they don't want children because there could be a census law in there country where you can only have a certain amount of kids. There might be an over population where they are, which is why they may not want children.

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  7. I think that children are a distraction to the technology and free time. I also think that society is becoming more lazy and children are too much work.

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  8. I think that they do not want children because i dont think they are ready, nor responsible to take care of children. And they are not in love anymore, and the child would just interfere with their relationsip even more.

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  9. I dont think the people in F451 want to have children because they are lazy and they are so absored with technology that they feel it takes to much time to raise and teach a child. They dont want to have the burden and responsibility that it takes to take care an actual human.

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  10. The women don't want children because raising a children is very much work on the parents part. Having a child would take away from the parents personal time. Throughout the lives of parents, they were brought up to do what the government wants them to do. Having a child would give people responsibility, and they are not really capable of responsibility.

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  11. i think children would be viewed as a burden to the mothers because since the mothers are so reliant on the parlor, they will not ever take care of the children. i also agree with alex, since no one really has true love, they won't love the kids so the mothers won't be able to hold the relationship with the kids.

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  12. In this society, children are young and raw and will absorb what they see. Children may ask more questions and challenge the system. As children, the people do not have the system drilled in their brains yet, and they will question things.

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  13. Montag and Mildred don't love each other anymore, so why would they take the time to have children.

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  14. There are probably machines to do all the parenting for you like Nick is saying kind of.

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  15. I think that it is also conformation. Everyone thinks "no one else has any so I shouldn't".

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  16. I agree with Amanda, The children must be impeding on their lives and all the fun things they want to do so they probably don't want to have to take care of something else because it may not be 'fun.'

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  17. Nobody wants to have kids for a couple of reasons. First, the couple might not actually love eachother and dont want kids for that reason. Also, it would be distracting to the technology.

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  18. I agree with Eric. If one person doesn't want children, the other people follow along.

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  19. I agree with kyle, all the mildred wants is her fourth wall, and she is also so brainwashed that i really dont think mildred will pay attention to the child enough.

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  20. Raising children in HARD! In this apathetic culture, there is no way parents care enough to take care of children. They have lost all touch of emotions. :(

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  21. I agree with eric and suzy. It's possible that they don't have kids simply because they are afraid to stand out

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  22. you would almost think they would have more kids since a society that revolves around media makes it seem that having sex is ok

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  23. i agree with suzy. after a certain ammount of time, no one is going to want to have children and then they will be left wwith old people and no youth.

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  24. Does the goverment or whoever want more or less people?

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  25. Nick is probably right about machines to take care of them. Listen to Mrs Moritz she has 1st hand experience of taking care of kids. It's probably hard. It's probably time consuming. But there are machines, and like Mrs Moritz is saying, they probably take away all emotion. NO care in kids, they grow up to be non-emotional or suicidal because they think that no one loves them...

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  26. They have lost there touch of emotions like Mrs. Moritz said. They wouldn't really know how to care or LOVE the kid.

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  27. Maybe mildred is gonna be different and like books like montag.

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  28. Going off of what Nick said, i agree with the thought that having kids may be a financial difficulty for the people for society. Plus the fact that the people in the society are always spending money on new technology.

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  29. In the society of 451, everyone wants happiness. Everything is set up so people are "happy". Raising children is not an easy task, and people may think it would lead to unwanted stress, worry and unhappiness. Something with raising children could go wrong, and they may think it would ruin their lives.

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  30. I think that they just want to seperate the two because if kept it might take away from the bliss and perfection of society.

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  31. I disagree with luke, Mildred is so far gone that not even Montag's opinion counts.

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  32. I think that having a relationship is something that everyone wants, unfortunately, they don't want to have connection. Because, even though they can be happy, eventually that person will die, or something will happen, and they will be sad. And no one wants that.

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  33. Do you think they really care if they can say "they have someone." I think no one really cares about each other and could really care less about bragging about having someone. They are probably more concerned about bragging about their new viewing screens.

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  34. Zach: i think the government probably wants less people because it is so far into the future that there is probably an overpopulation.

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  35. I think that the government doesn't care about population zach, because when the moms are talking, one of the ladies has kids, so they have the option to. Then again it could just be like china in the sense they can only have limited kids.

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  36. @ Zach:
    I don't think that the government really has an opinion as long as people are happy and are'nt questioning the system.

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  37. i definitely think that they loved each other at one point, why else would they get married? i also think this is the reason that montag is so dissapointed in himself because he doesnt love her anymore.

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  38. i dont think they ever really loved eachother. it is considered the norm to get married weather or not your actually in love. i think they might havve been in like but i doubt if they have ever been in love.
    i think that if they love eachother 1, mildred would be more willing to have faith in montag and 2, they wouldnt be quite as distant as they are.

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  39. The people of Fahrenheit 451 seem to only mary to not be alone in the world-they don't really care about their spouse or love them. Marriages may have started out between two people that were deeply in love, but after a few years, the relationship deteriorates until it is not really a marriage any more.

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  41. I dont think so Zach, i think that they would not have married if they were lonely; besides, Montag hahs Faber, and Mildred has her lady friends

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  42. I do not think that people truly care about saying they have someone. Even if they did I think they would be much more interested in other things. To many other things distract them to even really know if they care for anyone at all except for the people on the screens. Also, if one person says they have someone everyone feels like they need to "have" someone.

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  43. It is impossible in F451's society to truly "love" someone. Love includes sadness as well as happiness, and they have been created to only experience joy and delight.

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  44. I agree with Joy about how Montag wants to love Mildred but he cant. But I still believe that there is still a small flicker of a relationship between them; but as time goes on, it will completely die.

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  45. maybe they marry for political reasons like for money or power or maybe the marriages are arranged.

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  46. i agree with adam now, why would they need a spouse when they have their vewing screens

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  47. I agree with Luc Montag is feeling feeling emoty without having actual love in his life.

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  48. I agree with Adam. They want to marry so they are not alone. I also think they marry to go along with the flow and to follow what the rest of society is doing.

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  49. Yeah but Montag didn't even know Faber yet and Mildred doesn't really have an opinion about anything.

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  50. Are there divorces in this society? If so, are people just too ignorant to think about that option?

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  51. I agree with zach, it's natural human nature for one to have a companion for there life and we as people get lonely and so that could lead to desperation. Montag and Mildred were probably just sad without someone to hang out with and someone to "love" so they just choose each other. They defiantly still choose each other. The gov. doesn't choose who you are with, I think.

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  52. In 451, marrige is a set standard. You have to get married when your older to be socially accepted. So they would have gotten married, it just wouldn't be the same as now. Marrige just for the sake of being married.

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  53. Perhaps they would want the real thing, Luc and Canyon.

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  54. To add onto Alex's point, Love is a hard emotion to define. People have struggled with the definition for centuries and many people have attempted to put it's meaning into words. If people today, where we aren't as attached to technology, can't really understand the overall definition of love is, how can the "brainwashed" people of F451 understand what love is?

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  55. He did not want to die with the books, because then all of the information about books would be gone.

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  56. Maybe or they feel that they are happy enough with the people that they are with. Not knowing how much better they could be with another person.

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  57. @ Joy D - Good point. Also, if love is pure at heart, and they really don't have a heart, then how can they love?

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  58. I thought he was just going to be arrested, not killed.

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  59. Well how could they nott have a heart, Ethan?

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  60. I want to pose an interesting question to the outer circle...do you think that Beatty committed suicide?

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  61. Ian:
    I think that there are no divorces in this society because the people do not take the time to get to know one another because of the technology, so it's sorta impossible to love your spouse.

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  62. David, they are so consumed by technology that they don't really feel or notice anything else

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  63. I agree with what Arika said. They may have married not nessecarily because they loved each other, but perhaps they married because that's what you do in this society. They may not have had many other options. Also, people in this society don't want to be alone. It seems single people in this society are looked down upon.

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  64. Ian-
    I dont think there are divorices in society because it wouldnt follow the norm or trend of the rest of society. Also I dont think they know what real love is so they dont think of divorice. They just know that they are supposed to be together through marriage.

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  65. @ DavidE - Well, think about it: they don't really care for anything but parlor walls. How could you have a heart if you really didn't care about anything else?

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  66. I think he knew that he was going to die but he chose not to do anything about it

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  67. I think Beatty did commit suicide. He had been just so fed up with his life, he wanted to die. Assisted suicide is what he did.

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  68. I agree with Joy. I think that people may get married onn impulse and just marry the first person they find attractive. Then, after a while of marriage they dont truly love eachother and then they dont think about having kids because they dont theink they love eachother enough to care for it.

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  69. i think it would definitely make sense, with all the things that was going on. but i do not see how he could have. i agree with nick, he wanted to die, but he didn't exactly kill himself.

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  70. I think that Betty did commit suicide because i think he could not have lived with thenguilt he felt for Montag after all of te prodding he did to Montag and what not.

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  71. Maybe - Beatty was with Montag about the whole book thing, just in secret. How else could he know all those quotes?

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  72. I do think that captain Beatty committed suicide. He did not try at all to stop Montag from killing him. But Nick has a good point. Is asking for death the same as suicide?? Because Beatty did "ask" for his death. I don't think he wanted to die or live, he was ready for whatever happened.

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  73. no I think that beatty committed suicide he was testing montag to see if he would break

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  74. I think that most likely Beatty committed suicide. It would make sense because I think since Beatty has to be a firefighter, but maybe he has the same curiosity as Montag but doesn't have the guts to do what Montag did so he just wanted to die, therefore he told Montag to by pushing Montag to his limits.

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  76. Like max said even if they are on the boarder about books, they still dont want to lose the info.

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  77. I do believe that Beatty commited suicide. He pushed Montag into making the choice to kill him. Beatty could have moved, ran away, or not tormented Montag into burning him to death, but he didnt. Beatty wanted to get out of the twisted society, he wanted a release from his shallow, really non-exsistant society.

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  78. I think Beatty was asking for his own death.

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  79. I don't think Beatty commited suicide. He just wanted to see how far Montag would go. He wanted to test him. He just kept egging him on, to see how he would respond.

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  80. Ethan: Beatty said that each Firemen was aloud to take home his own book once thats probably how he knew. If he was with him, why would he want to break him though?

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  81. Maybe beatty knew that he needed to die, maybe this is foreshadowing and this will come up later. Maybe his death will trigger a revolution or cause people to wake up from their bland lives.

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  82. Beatty was bored with life. He caught a glimpse of true happiness, but was a pessimist and didn't believe that society could change. He saw Montag as a way out.

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  83. I think that he wanted to die because he realized all the potential the world had, and he figured out that he couldn't tap into it.

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  84. Good Luc! I think that is an excellent point!

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  85. Luc- Why would his death trigger anything? Sure he was part of "the happiness boys" but his influence wasn't really that great when you look at the grand scheme of things

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  86. I think Beatty was so egotistical that he couldn't walk away from Montag eventhough he knew he would die.
    When you think about people in power, who have an ego to match that power, they are not going to walk away from a challenge.

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  87. @David - Well, he probably was just acting in secret, and he just followed the law. Hypocritical? Maybe Beatty had his reasons.

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  88. I think Beatty didn't try to make any changes in his position of power because of the pressure he was under. I think Beatty would have been taken down if he tried to speak up.

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  89. I agree with Alex and Rachel. I think he wanted to die to escape problems that he didnt want to face. He never tried to escape or defend himself from Montag, he just smiled and asked him to hand it over which seems like he was provoking Montag to kill him.

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  90. good point alex.but maybe he crackedd under all of that pressure. and his act of being cool and liking his job was just a false pretense

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  91. good point Luc!!! I completely agree.

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  92. For the first time, Mrs. Phelps heard and, more importantly, felt something. She was scared because she had never experienced an real emotion before.

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  93. I love this scene in the book. It just shows the power of the written word.
    Why did she cry? Was she overwhelmed by the language? Was she frustrated because she couln't understand? What's her deal?

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  94. I think that mildrids friend burst out crying she was fallowing the social norm of acting shallow.

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  95. @Eric--do you think she understood? How could she feel?

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  96. good point Ethan! That definitely makes sense.

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  97. @Eric - That's probably true. Maybe she thought it was so beutiful, and she was enlightened to books.

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  98. I think she cried because she felt some emotion but I don't think she knew why she was crying.

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  99. I think Mrs. Phelps cries because it talks about war in a negative light. Her husband is in war and she feels sorrow because of this.

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  100. People in that society have not felt emotions other than "happiness", their entire lives. We have undergone many emotions, happy and sad, and learned to deal with them. Mrs. Phelps does not know how to react or stop those feelings from totally overwhelming her.

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  101. i think she has just been keeping it all inside, and she needed something very powerful to let them out, and i dont think she knew how beautiful literature can be.

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  102. I agree with Eric, peoplee sometimes do not really no how much emotions are bottled inside of them. The poem was just so powering to her that it brought her too tears. When Mrs. Bowles stuck up for her, I think she was just trying to make Montag feel bad even though she didn't even know how Phelps felt.

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  103. I agree with all the other people who said she didnt know why she was crying.

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  104. I think that although she really didnt understand what the peom meant, it triggered these emotions that she had had but maybe she didnt know how to express them.

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  106. I agree with Eric fully. The fact that she had never had other emotions than happiness, she couldn't control the other emotions when they started to get to her.

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  107. I also think that there is a possiblility that she was crying because she was exposed to a book, something that she had been told was forbidden and she didn't know how to react. It also could have been a delayed reaction to the fact that her beloved parlor walls were turned off.

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  108. In response to some questions, every single person has the capacity to feel, there is no way to make this disappear. It is like instincts, we will sometimes do stuff that we were never taught to do. Sometimes it just happens, just like feelings.

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  109. @Alexa - That's true. Her emotions burst, and for the first time in her life, she felt what it is to be human. Her newfound emotions caused her to cry. It's as if a light is turned on in the head and it's so bright that one is blinded...

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  110. i think this could be relating to beatty somehow, with one woman starting to live her life to the fullest, another is ending it.

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  111. I agree with eric. I believe that Mrs. Phelps cried because she actually felt something in the poem. It shows that the people in the book might actually have emotion and be able to comprehend little, not very complex statements. The people have kept the ability to comprehend text, they just choose to ignore it because reading takes much more energy than just watching "family members" in the parlor and doing only what the gov. wants them to.

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  112. The poem really fits the book. The final lines talking of ignorant fighting speaks to the ignorant living of the people. People don't have emotion, they don't know what their fighting for, they don't know what their living for.

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  113. @Joy - Yeah, that's actually a big possibility, but it's probably not true. When the parlor walls went off, it was just shock. When she heard the poem, she might have thought of her husband and everything joyous in her life, and she cried because she finally understood it. It's like the light analogy I made earlier

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  114. I don't think we know enough about them to know why they are eager or not to hear the poem.

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  115. Luc what do you mean by Mrs. Phelps breakdown relating to Beatty??

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  116. David: this was a little while ago when the chick was crying but there was a trigger to make her start crying.

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  117. Let's talk about the conversation the ladies had before the book. They were talking about the president and hwo they were going to vote. What does this reveal?

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  118. I completly agree with Derek about how well the poem fits the book.

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  119. I think Mrs. Phelps wanted to hear the poem because she was simply curious. She merely wanted to know what was so great about books, and why books are banned.

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  120. The president is elected by just good looks. Imagine if someone ugly ran, but he was very smart. Would you rather be smart and ugly, or good looking and dumb?

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  121. joy, i dont know i cant find a legitimate way to explain myself.

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  122. Maybe the society in 451 steals technology from other society's

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  123. @Ethan--How true is that in our society?

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  124. I don't think that Bradbury wrote this book to show what our society is heading for, but rather to show us how valuable our thoughts and opinions can be. And we can't just fit into society but rather stick out and contribute.

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  125. I don't know if people are really that kind hearted, to Alex in the ic, if it took this long and the society has been like this for even longer, i don't think they really want to help with the books. I think they are not challenging to the system. They like to play it safe

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  126. They don't actually listen to what the people running for presidents are saying. They only care about looks for people and I think that this relates to our society because a lot of people do only look at people from the outside, they don't want to take a second and actually talk to the person.

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  127. @David:
    I think to help clearify what Zach said....I think he meant that there is always something from somones past and underlying emotions that suddenly come forward when that person doesnt expect it.

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  128. Canyon has a great point. We are focussing on the little things instead of the big picture.

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  129. Luc- so are you saying that maybe when Mrs Phelps heard the poem she "woke up?"

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  130. Their ideas on voting show that they completely disagree with "don't judge a book by its cover". I think the government puts in one "candidate" that they want to win. Then they put in their other puppet candidate just to lose.

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  131. Disgrace! Injustice! Appearence is important, but it's not what you should judge by!

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  132. This conversation between the ladies reveals that society does not really care about how their country is run. They voted for the most handsome man with an appealing name, they did not even care about issues or how the president would run the nation. They were taught to function by whatever they are told. The woman do not really have an opinion, they only judge by what is on the outside.

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  133. yes that is what i am saying joy.

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  134. I agree with Adam. The women just go along with whatever everyone else thinks.

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  135. First impressions are given when people are different and have different characteristics. In F451's society, they are all the same on the outside.

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  136. One way you can mask your appearence is plastic surgery, but it's fake, and it isn't right. People should be proud by how they look, no matter how ugly or good looking!

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  137. I agree with the discussion but i think that people do think in something as important as the presedential election, but like in school when some people see someone, they automatically judge them.

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  138. I think that the women really don't care joy, so i agree, they are so absorbed in there technology that they just go with what others say.

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  139. The talk that the women had about politics shows the ignorance of the people. They don't know the issues, they don't know canidate platforms, so they vote on what they do know about the canidates: appearance, and the way they act.

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  140. yea i agree with adam also. Sometimes people like someone at first, and then there friend says that they don't like them, and since they dont want to be different, they stop liking them.

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  141. IF PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE JUDGE PEOPLE BY THERE APPEARANCES, WHY DO WE STILL DO IT???

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  142. I think the firemen would not have helpped im right away because of the way thier society is; But in time they might have thought about it and most likely decided to help Montag.

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  143. Don't judge a book by its cover!!!!!

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  144. 451 is easy if you're trying to get elected president. Just get a flair, a good look, a good smile, a good name, and your set to rule!

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  145. Sandra, we don't mean to, we just do,i cant really explain it

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  146. I agree with Eric. I think in F451 it is possible that the government may place one candidate in the running that they want to win and the rest of them are just to make the election seem real. The ladies conversastion shows that they only care about looks, and they dont know or care about what the views of the candidates on politics

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  147. @Sandra, we still do it because it's part of human nature. People will always do it.

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  148. Sandra:
    It's human nature. I dont think that there is really any way to stop the judgemental mindset of the people.

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  149. Because since we aren't perfect Sandra, then we always make mistakes

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  150. ~Sandra

    people do it because humans are flawed. Its not a humans fault. It is something the human brain does and thats how it processes. Thats how the mind works. It is just how you reflect on those judged things that matters. because that will never stop.

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  151. Did Clarisse really get hit by a car or was that merely a coverup story for something else?

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  152. David, I think that the women do care a little bit, but they care about appereance instead of what the candidates stand for

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  153. It could just be a fake election to give the citizens a sense of power. There could have never been a real election

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  154. I think the government is just a "pretty face", much like our gov't. The president's just a package to deliver the overall rule of the country.

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  155. @ AmandaV - Yeah! Humans are simple minded when it comes to judgement. That looks nice, that discomforts me. Humans are looking to comfort, not discomfort. When you feel discomfort, what do you do?

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  156. Humans are shallow, simple-minded creatures that care much more about a pretty face than any actually views and beliefs that a person has

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