Monday, October 26, 2009

3rd Hour Fahrenheit Liveblog/Fishbowl pgs 69-91

Hey Everyone--
Please stick to the task at hand and focus on the discussion regarding the text. Also remember, the same rules apply to liveblog as with the fishbowl discussion. BE NICE!

219 comments:

  1. 1st comment:
    Humans are very rebellious in nature. When a set of rules is set, some if not all of humans will rebell against the system...

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  2. His sense of eagerness and sense of curiostiy tell us that like Sandra said, we want to know what we cant know and we want what we cant have. If we dont know something we want to fix that and try to know what it is.

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  3. I would say that Montag in unusual. Most people wouldn't have the courage to challenge the system. Most people would quietly disagree, but they wouldn't want to openly challenge the government.

    I agree with what Sandra said that humans are curious. They are curious, but how many people will actually be willing to challenge the government just for the sake of curiousity?

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  4. human behavior tells us to fallow the group but all of us have an inner nature to be curious.

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  5. This shows that people really do have an urge to satisfy themselves at all times. I agree with Taylor, we always want what we can't have. Each Human has an inate sense to challenge things that they think are not right. They always want to voice their opinion.

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  6. Look at the examples of The American Revolution, The French Revolution, the African Revolutions of the 60's, and all the other Revolutions of history. Humans love challenging the system, just to challenge the system.

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  7. This says that humans are very curious(what sandra and taylor said)we want what we cant have. And since montag saw that clarrise is so different, he is more comfortable showing his real personality. which is like clarrise.

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  8. I agree with Taylor in that all humans have a part of them that wants what they cant have and they want to know what they can't. Most people at some point in their lives want to bring down the system that is in a position of authority.

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  9. It, in a way, demonstrates that we all have a sense of "evil" since at times it may be going against the rules to be curious and ask specific questions. The way that they control the people makes them not curious, I don't believe the people care unless there is that spark that makes them curious, but its different for everyone else.

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  10. I think that Montag shows that people like to question, and people always want more than they have, both in knowledge and in material possesions.

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  11. Cole i completely disagree. No one, i think, ever wants to follow. Everyone wants to do their own thing. I think it is rare that someone just follows the group without considering if they really want to do that. This is a common misconception that is voiced in movies and books and such. This really never happens in real life.

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  12. I agree with what Lauren said. Most people are curious, it's just our nature, but who will actually have enough curiosity and drive to openly challenge the system and challenge the government.

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  13. I don't think there is a true religion, and if there was one, burining books would be a part of the religion. I don't think the government lets them have a religion. There isn't any in this book because religion entails curiostity. The gov't is trying to keep this sense out of peoples mind.

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  14. I agree with what David said about each human having an innate sense of right and wrong, like a conscience. However, I don't agree that all people are willing to voice their opinions. Most people just quietly say their own opinions to themselves, they don't go out and talk about them.

    People brought up the point of religion causing a rebellion. I think that most people would continue to practice their religions quietly without a war or rebellion. I don't think people are passionate or extreme enough to do that.

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  15. They said that religion is present but it is only Christianity. Jesus is present but he is modernized and not respected in the same way at all. This just goes to show how the people have gotten lazy and let their religion slide. There may still be Bibles out there because you never know how many books are still out there. There are still firemen so there must still be some books.

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  16. I do not think that the society in F451 has a religion. Religion was in books, which made them unhappy before, and books were burned so i think that religion died with it. I do not think that the government wants a religion because it means that some people will be higher than others, and not everyone will be equal which the government does not want.

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  17. I think that in a way, technology is their religion because the people of F451, because it consumes them and it's all that they really pay attention to.

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  18. If the society had a religion i do think it might spark a problem. The government wants everyone to be equal and having a religion can change the way that is. People might fight about how certain things should be done and how one religion might be better than the other.

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  19. I disagree with you Cole. Just Human nature is not to just "go with the flow." Human nature is to just be accepted by society. Most people do NOT want to follow what others are doing, but the fear of not being accepted by it gets in the way.

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  20. I agree with myself when I say that even though humans strive to set up a system of laws, and create order, most humans are just eager for change. Humans don't like set rules. Most humans want to do what they want to do, so they challenge the system to set up their OWN system that challenges the other system!

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  21. religion can interfere with the government people tend to be very defensive about their religious belies and this can inter fear with what the government wants to do

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  22. I think that since the Bible has been burned, people now look to thier electronics for giudence, instead of god.

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  23. The people don't have a religion because they just go by what the government says. If everyone had a religion people would start to fight because people disagree on religion. In the U.S. we disagree with the Islam religion.

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  24. People dating back to the Middle Ages have always wanted to rebel, because sometimes they didn't like something or they just wanted to. Our country was started on a rebellion when people weren't treated fairly and they decided to do something about it.

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  25. It says that we like to know things we can't know. The book hiders want more books because they are banned. Someone will always deny the system.

    In f451 they don't really have a religion anymore. It made certain people unhappy, and being unhappy defys the government, so they burn all religious artifacts, and all religious things, such as the Bible. I agree with Taylor and Ian. Religion is so contrasting in this "new" world, that they need to burn it, and get rid of it.

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  26. Montag's curiosity tells us that even though the people are told what to do, when they are presented with a question they will want to know. When they aren't allowed to think, they don't but when someone like Clarisse comes and gives them an idea people want to know.

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  27. Is there even room for religion? They are removing people's ability to think...can they have faith?

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  28. I agree with Ian, the government could be told as a government itself. To Sandra's question, they havent really talked about the government as much yet, and so the government hasnt explained their veiws yet.

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  29. I agree with the fact that humans are curious. Gabby makes a good point that it is part of our nature and we have a need to follow that. We follow our instincts even when it goes against the system.

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  30. I disagree with what Ethan said. I don't think that most people have the courage to challenge the system. I also disagree with what David said. I think everyone wants to be independent, but they aren't. We follow everyone. When a new clothing style comes into the store, everyone goes and buys it. When a song hits number 1 on iTumes, everyone goes and buys it. They want to be the same, be "equal" and just as good as everyone else. We follow the people in Hollywood, we do what they do, wear the clothes they do, some girls think they have to be super-skinny like them. We are always following someone else.

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  31. I agree with Joy, technology could be their religion because they rely on it so much. Alot of people rely on religion to guide them through life, like Mildred does with her technology, so I think in a way technology is their religion.

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  32. I agree that religion can create inequality and contrasting viewpoints. Certain religions may highly value or disvalue certain people, and separate religions do not agree on all issues.

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  33. I agree with Rachel about the presence of Religion. Right now Chrisitanity is a big joke on TV in 451. So when Montag asks how many copies of the bible there are, then he is really asking for the TRUE vision of Christianity, not the jokeful form in 451 at that time.

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  34. do you think electronics effect how people look at region or help decide if people have religious beliefs at all is this present in our society

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  35. I also agree with Alex. Their government is almost entirely communist. Therefore, they must not allow people the right of religion. because then there would not be sameness in the society. The government would not like it if there were a bunch of different people voicing their different oopinions on their reiligon and their moral views.

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  36. I like what Suzy said about technology being ther religion. Almost like an idol or something. They devot the most time to it, so that's pretty much worshipping it.

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  37. People even today have let religion slide because people used to go to Church every Sunday, now some people are lucky if they can even get to church once in two weeks.

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  38. The Bible isn't going to be as valuble to some people. The value of books depends on whta you believe in, what you want and need to hear/learn.

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  39. I don't think the books are valued differently. To them books are books and it doesn't matter what is in them. The flow of knowledge just needs to be controlled.

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  40. I don't think that they have religion or know what it is. Because people are getting so consumed with their technolgy. I don't think that they really care about religion because Montag starts ripping it and they aren't very concerned that they are burning it.

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  41. Mrs. Moritz brings up a good point. If the government is limiting the ability to think, then how can there be religion? How can there be faith? Faith inovlves plenty of thinking and believing and if the government takes it all away then there's no point to religion.

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  42. Yes the books do have differnet values. Like Taylor said, depending on the person a book can be gold or trash. Sandra is right the bible is more valueable than the magic treehouse because when you think about it how will the magic treehouse help society??

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  43. The Bible is only made more relevent to your life if you believe it. If you believe what goes on in the Magic Tree House it may be more relevent to your life and therefore have greater influence.

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  44. I agree with Mrs. Mortiz when she said that people can't even think enough to have religion. When you choose to follow a religion, at first it might be because you were raised that way, but eventually you have to make your own choice about whether to continue to follow that religion. If you can't think because you are completely consumed with technology, then how can you choose to follow a religion? And, if you do, how can you actually follow it wholeheartedly.

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  45. I think that just cause it has more in the book, doesnt mean that it is more valuable. Even 10 word quotes can have 10 times more meaning than a 400 page book.

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  46. Responding to Mrs Moritz's question, I think that the people in F451 don't really have the capability of having a religion. They are so consumed by their bland (Vocab word!) way of life that they don't really think about anything else than technology and what the govt tells them to think.

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  47. Montag can read books but he really cannot comprehend books.

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  48. Mrs. Moritz:
    I do not think there is room for religion in their society. They are way too absorbed in their technology and there 'families' and what not. All they ever want to do is have fun like Montag and Beatty said. That is probably why they are not strict in rules. Their society has become so absorbed in that socialist idea that they probably don't even WANT to practice a religion.

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  49. Books have much different values. I agree with anyone who agrees with me when I say that there are many values in the world from books. different books have different values. If you read a book on science, then the value is the knowlege from the science you get.

    However, some values are much more influential than others. Using Sandra's example: The Magic Treehouse and the Bible, the bible has much more value because you can't really make a visual picture on TV about it. The Magic Treehouse is fictional and has less value

    But some values are the exact same, influental and all. The Koran and the Bible teach different things, but they are valuable to different people.

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  50. I think what Sandra means about the Bible being more valuable is that there is so much more in it than a small children's book like the magic treehouse. Even if you DON'T believe in the stuff in the Bible, there's still values and lessons you can learn from it, even if you don't believe it the religion part. You can still learn from it morally.

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  51. I think Montag has yet to be able to analyze books and truly understand them. He doesn't see the story beyond the words, and he can't take lasting effects out of the books.

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  52. I think that Beatty will come after Montag if he doesn't burn the books. Beatty knows Montag has them, and he expects Montag to come forward and be a man and give back the book, but if he doesn't, then I think Beatty will come after him.

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  53. I believe that certain books do have more value than others is always circumstancial because if someone is deciding to learn about math and they are deciding to read either a math textbook or the Bible he will value the textbook more only depening on that subject he wants to read about. If he wants to learn about Christianity than he would value the Bible more.

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  54. do you think clasise is religious she thinks alot about society and posses the intellect to think about religion closely

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  55. Laura- Thats why he went to Faber, he wants to learn how to comprehend the books so that they have some sort of meaning to him. How do they know how to read if they aren't allowed to read books and they aren't really taught anything in school?

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  56. Ethan, in my opinion, all books have some sort of value to them. No matter what genre, or even if the book isn't that great.

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  57. Zach's question is hard to answer.

    I think the height of the cliffs are the knowlege of man. However, Beatty preaches that we need less of it. Taking away books creates a smaller cliff. The cliff you are jumping off in Beatty's view is a bad thing. He thinks that man will go downhill and die with knowlege. He is wrong. Knowlege only makes man advance.

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  58. I agree with Luc, its quality not quantity.

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  59. I agree with Sarah that they don't care what is in the books. They have just been expected to oppose books, and they don't know why. I think that the fireman might end up being the people that are keeping the most books because they seem the most curious about what is in the books.

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  60. I agree with Derek, but that is only because he has no experience. He doesn't understand that there is a deeper meaning to the stories. I think he is on the verge of discovering that but until he does the books will be pointless to him.

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  61. going off Mrs. Moritz's question, I think that the people in this society do not have room for religion. The society is purely based on technology and i dont think the people in the society have a true point to live. The people (like Clarisse) that challenge the system are the ones who are thinking out of the box and living. They are tryin to be different and show the rest of the sciety that there is a point in life besides watching the parlor walls. But back t the religion thing they dont have room because they cant even think for themselves or remember thing that have happened in their life.

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  62. I agree with Lauren because even if you aren't a christrian the bible teaches you how to be a good person and even if you do make mistakes people will still trust you and they will forgive eventually.

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  63. I think that it will take a while for Montag to really understand the knowledge that the books hold because the idea of technology has been pounded into his brain for as long as he has been alive so it will take a long time to think whith a different mentality

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  64. Answering Cole's question: no, I don't think she's religious; I think religion has been WAY too far removed from their society. I just think that she has been raised in a family where she was taught to think critically and analyze.

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  65. @ Gabby

    Yes, I think that too, it's just that different books have different values, and the books are valuable to different people, so the value varies from book and person.

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  66. i think although montag doesnt know all of the meaning behind all of his books, he really wasnt to try his hardest to find the true meaning and asorb all of the knowledge from the books. its kind of like adam and eve with the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge.

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  67. I agree with Gabby, all books have value and morals even if they are hard for some people to understand. Even if one person does not value it, other people may value it very much. I don't think that Montag fully understands the value of the Bible.

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  68. Maybe Montag has some history with the war. And the reason he freaks out is due to some post dramatic stress. Maybe its all of his life work of burning that flashes before him when he hears the planes.

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  69. I agree with Suzy. Beatty is giving Montag a chance but he knows that there is a limited time. When the book borrowing time ends, Beatty will burn the house and the books. He needs to make sure he sets an example for the other firemen!

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  70. I agree with Taylor in the topic of the cycle on intellect. People seek out knowledge, but eventually this knowledge destroys society, so the knowledge must be destroyed, and the cycle starts over again.

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  71. The war is the struggle between the people and the government and how the people are evoling and they want to become informed.

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  72. I think the quote from Faber about jumping off cliffs means: That eventually things will get better. So when someone tries to challenge the system like Montag is, then it will not be as great of a 'breach' in etiquette, becasuse by then people will have eventually decided that their system is not foolproof, and that they DO need books. Once they realize that, then the process of trying to bring back books by challenging the system will not be as much though of as an impossible feat.

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  73. The war bothers Montag because it is so "real." I like what Zack said about how the war is similar to what's going on in his head. The war isn't just some stupid telvision show, it's something that's actually happening, people are actually dying, and it's REAL. The parlor "families" are fake and their problems aren't real, but the war is a real conflict, and I think Montag recognizes that.

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  74. @ ArikaD - That's good. I agree completely. And Faber is his gateway to knowlege in his mind. Montag thinks that Faber will help him understand books, when he says, "You're the only one I knew might help me. To see. To see..." (pg 81)

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  75. We are depending less on our mind and listening to the internet and the media. People don't need to think a lot any more. They can just listen to what the majority says.

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  76. This novel could be the future or it could be the complete opposite. Like Taylor said we are depending less on our minds and more on technology. But we could see that this is what is happeneing and we could change it if we really want to.

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  77. Lauren-maybe the government is creating a fake war, just to scare people like Montag??

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  78. I'm confused a little on Beatty position on books, he knows all of these quotes but then he goes and gives a long speech about how knowledge is bad. Does he suppport burning or reading books?

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  79. I really hope that it never gets as bad as the novel says, as Sandra is saying right now. I would hate to be replaced by a screenshot of my face. Somewhat ironic today, huh?

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  80. do you think the war in 451 will have more people challenge the system as they wake up as their loved ones die in the war

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  81. Going off what Kyle said about Montag having some type of PTSD: PTSD (post-traumtic stress disorder) is common among war veterans but other people get it too. The death Montag causes might remind him of the death caused by the war. Does Montag have PTSD? I don't know. But I think he definately makes a connection between his job and their jobs. They are similar.

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  82. I dont think that this will ever happen, maybe technology wise, but definitely not in the way where we do not know what is going in the government. The only way we would go into this slump is if we are not aware. But since everybody thinks that we are going to be like this, means we are aware that this could happen and we know to avoid it.

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  83. I think that people rely on technology, but not to the point in F451. Like if someone were to take away Mildred's "family" she would be lost, and wouldn't know what to do with herself. Take away any teenager's cell phone and it will have the same effect. They will not know what to do with themselves without their phones on which they rely so much.

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  84. @Joy-
    I like your question. What do you all think???

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  85. Going off what Zach is saying, the little stuff can begin it all but it will grow. The small things make us lazy but eventually that will grow into a larger problem. If it's too hard to press a button what will be too hard for us next?

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  86. @ Sandra - I think that's a flaw in man. People are working less, and life gets easier. You get cheated out of the work, and their morale of "I'm doing a great job" diminishes rapidly!

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  87. Our world is starting to head in the direction of F451. Now knowledge isn't as important. It's more like memorizing things to make you feel smart, although you really aren't gaining much knowledge. We are too dependant on technology. Technology improving needs to have at least one person to think. No idea can come out if you don't think.

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  88. Laura, i agree with you. Eventually, i don't think we'll get to be as drastic as the book, but we're getting way to dependent on technology. It is thinking for us in a way, we won't have our own minds soon. In F451, I think they select a few people to actually teach quality stuff too so that they're able to come upn with new and improved ideas.

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  89. Maybe the government doesnt want to improve. Maybe they have officially stunted growth of the brain and are planning to stay where they are. They have advanced to a point where they are all "happy", why change?

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  90. I don't think that our society is heading in this direction. We may have more and more technology, but the human element will not be lost, as in 451. People use more and more technology simply to make life easier. However, much of this technology is used to communicate, and interact. Also, technology moves forward because of intellects, who are valued in our society.

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  91. I agree, we are dependent on technology. I agree with Zach, all of this makes life "easier". However, I think that is one of the main issues. People just want to float through life and not work or try. Today, we have places where we can download music because its too hard to go to the music store. Ben makes a good point, we keep wanting more so we are provided more. This sets an expectation for technology to improve all the time.

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  92. In reference to my letter to Beatty: You need smart people to help the human race as a whole to advance. You also need the rest of the population to support the inventions/discoveries that smart people make!

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  93. I like your point, Gabby, about a fake war. I can see how that could freak average people out, but the only person who really gets freaked out is Montag. The rest of the people are too consumed with the technology to notice the war. I think that it is a real war, but most people wouldn't take notice of a "fake war". War just doesn't scare them, because they're living in this fake, televised world where all they care about is the parlor falmilies. They are almost seperated from reality.

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  94. To joy's question i think beatty is alot like montag, he reads books, but he is to scared to show it. And sometimes the quotes slip out of his mouth

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  95. I agree with Luc. There will not be a time when the people don't know what's going on within the government. A lot of people are afraid that the government has been gaining too much power, and the citizens will do something about it. Not just sit around and no act upon it.

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  96. i agree with lauren. the people of this time are so materialistic and dependant on technology that they dont really grasp the full meaning of war and that people are actually dying out there.

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  97. Do the people know what the war is over? Who decides when they go to war? In the book they say that the world hates their world, but what is their world? I don't think that we know how bad it will get. Will technolgy improve in Fahrenheit 451 or have they gotten too dependent on the technology that they can't think and they won't make the improvements. Could this mean that technolgy could stop itself?

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  98. I disagree Derek, People do not seek out knowledge in their lives. They just want to have fun in their society. Remember what Beatty said? And how he said that the intellecutal was a bad word and how the smart kid in their class was beaten? It is the exact opposite of people seeking out knowledge.



    Also, Regarding Sandra's comment on the Dependency, People are dependent on technology to some extent. They do have Electric things to get people places for them like
    Ben said but some of the things like the New Hand Sanitizers are not made so people can become dependendnt. When something like that is installed into a school it is because it makes it easier for students so they do not have to waste time at the Hand Sanitizer so we can continue learning without wasting much time, while gettin clean, sanitized hands that are healthy for the school.

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  99. to add to my previous question-
    You would think that if Beatty is a fireman, then he would be for burning books but then when you look at Montag's uncertainty about burning books it becomes confusing because they are both firemen but they appear to have different veiws

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  100. The hand sanitizer is not just more eficient but it also creates a healthier environment, when no one pushes a button for sanitzer, then no germs are spread. So, therefore, i agree with Zach that there is good and bad tech.

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  101. It seems that technology todays limits our bodies rather than our minds. Technology may make us physically lazy, but we are still thinking.

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  102. Joy, I think that Beatty might be confused about his position. I know I am. He might love books, but has to cover it up to keep his job. Or it might be the complete opposite. I think that Ray Bradbury put these unanswered questions in the book to make you think. This is a question on which you can't rely on technology.

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  103. To Joy's question- I think that Beatty has 2 different opinions on books. He supports burning the books, but he also supports reading them. Many people have mixed opinions on a lot of things, like presidential elections. They may like one idea of one candidate on one issue, but on another issue they may not, and agree with the other candidate. In the end though they will have to make a decision to vote. I think that later on in the book we will find out how Beatty realyl feels about books.

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  104. Joy- I think that Beatty is secretly hiding books himself. Remember, in the society in F451, people blame and point fingers to other people....

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  105. To answer Joy's question: I think he supports burning books. I think that Beatty is somewhat high up in the government, so he knows the all the stuff that is in books. He himself wants the knowledge, but he doesn't want the average civilian to know it. He wants the knowledge for himself, but he doesn't want anyone else to have that knowledge. Knowledge=power, and Beatty wants to keep his power.

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  106. I agree with Taylor because when someone invents something and it amuses the population they enjoy it and it takes their attention away from the big deals in life and then when people are done being amused they come out with something else. However I dis agree with when Zach said we are being lazy like building subways. I disagree because we didn't make it to become lazy we made it to make a cheap transportation system that is effective.

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  107. Katie: The war is not over. Do you remember on page 94? they said that the war was supposed to start the next week because it was only supposed to last a day and they would be home in a week. So no the people know because the was has not even started yet.

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  108. @ Canyon: That's what 451 is all about. Nothing needs improving? That's a load of bogus! We are never perfect, and people need improvements and fixes in the courses of human history! Were the Romans perfect? Were the Greeks, the Brits, the Nazis, The Americans, The Chineese, always perfect? Thanks for bringing that up, Canyon.

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  109. i kdiskagree with ben. beady does not really care about books, he just feals supirior over everyone and thats why he thinks he needs to know every thing. he is definatly hypocritical and power hungry.

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  110. I think Beatty has been educated through the books, but he doesn't see the value in the knowledge. He has read books, but he doesn't see anything in them.

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  111. I think he supports reading books but he knows that he really shouldn't because he is a firemen. Duh! He feels like he should be able to read books but other people shouldn't be able to read books.

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  112. How do they decide on their government? Who is ruling and is their anyone ruling? Is the technology ruling them? I think that all of the firemen own books, but they are too nervous to speak out aginst the burnig.

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  113. I think he likes buring and reading books. I agree with Taylor, he's power hungry and he feels that if he reads books, he feels he's smarter and better than everyone else. Off of what ben said, "its human nature" are the people truly "human" or what we consider "human" in society today??

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  114. I think Montag and Beatty both have different reasons for reading the books.

    Beatty's reason: He wants power, he wants knowledge so that he can stay ahead of everyone else, so that he can be better.

    Montag's reason: Montag also wants knowledge, but he wants the knowledge for EVERYONE.

    I think that's the main different, Beattty wants the knowledge only for himself, but Montag wants EVERYONE to have the knowledge.

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  115. Nick, I disagree. Zac has a point when he says we're getting lazy, I mean just look at drive thru's! People are getting somewhat lazy when they go out to buy food, and then someone invented the drive thru so no one will have to get out of their car.

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  116. Derek: i disagree. People are not thinking as much as they used too. Because now there are things and people to do the thinking for us, Like SparkNotes and Google, where you can just type in your research and it will do it fo you. We are limiting both our physical beings and our mental beings.

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  117. Derek makes a good point, we still think but we are loosing opportunities to think and learn.

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  118. inventing new things does not make us lazy but more efficient if we did not invent new things what would be the point of life how would we be where we are with out innovation

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  119. I think that Beatty is secretly full of knowledge. He is extremely powerful and when he is in that position people are scared to question him. He enjoys reading but does not act like it because it is not socially or politically accepted. He has many smart things to say and makes points against knowledge. I think it is just to shield what he really feels. He just wants to maintain his position of power.

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  120. I think that there is something in Montag and Faber that not many other has. They have the curiousity that people like Mildred dont. Even if they still obey all the laws that are in the society they are challenging the system by actually doing something about it.

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  121. To Katie's question-I think that there might not actually be a government. Maybe there used to be one, but the system faded, and because the people don't know what is going on, so they don't know that there isn't a government. People are pretty much relying on technology so live, so they don't really need a government, because they are all to scared to do anything wrong.

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  122. Amanda: Montag has already started reading books. And he is already starting to do things about it.

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  123. Was anyone confused about what happened on the subway??? When Montag was on his way to Faber's house.

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  124. Is the said "government" actually an illusion? Beatty talked about how the people, in a way, decided to turn away from books. Do the people's expectations of eachother cause them to keep everyone away from books?

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  125. Alex makes a good point how and who defines what human nature is?

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  126. Faber talks about how he had the chance to speak out when he was younger about things going downhill to where they are in 451. Why didn't more people speak out? There had to be more intellectuals like Faber who knew things weren't right.

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  127. Mrs. Moritz- I was confused about what happened. Was there a speaker advertising new technology??

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  128. How come the dog didnt persue Montag further? How come it left the front door so quickly?

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  129. Katie: Someone will always rule. Like if the president dies, the Vice-president will take over. Someone will always rule, someone will always seek power, wich will make someone take over. Their government is a mystery. Even if there's no "real" government, then the Firemen are enforcing the laws, and they are kind of ruling. I think that the technology is helping the "government" rule.

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  130. The dog doesn't make its own instincts. The dog goes off what other people are thinking.

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  131. @ DavidE - That's what every nation thinks before a war. They think that they'll go in and be home in time for Halloween! No, this is what happened in the Civil War, World War I, World War II, The Revolution, Etc. What happened in all those wars? They lasted years.


    - Can society go back to the way it was? Totally! If Montag groups with a lot of revolutionaries and they take over the government and change it all.

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  132. Mrs. Mortiz, I was! Was he hallucinating? Or were the commercials that played on the subway driving him crazy? Why? Is it because he was guilty? Or nervous?

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  133. Yes, the subway scene completely confused me, what was going on with Montag? Is he going crazy? Is all this stress and need to read against the law hurting his mental health?

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  134. i think that beady might have sent the watchdoglk over to montags house. its kind of a conflict of interest that beady assumed that montag had books and out of nowhere the watchdog shows up

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  135. Are all dogs the same? Like the generla thing about them? Mechanical...

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  136. I think that Clarisse picked Montag for a reason because she knew that he could be curious. I'm not sure if we can ever turn back. That could be what Ray Bradbury was trying to show us that it is very hard to go back after being immersed in technolgy. I think that Montag might might make an influence but it probably won't go back exactly to what it was.

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  137. Cole: I think what you just said is a perfect example of how technology has distorted teens in America. Most people now think that their lives would not be good enough without technology. Most people do not realize that things can be done without technology. Things can be done by hand. Thhis is a perfect example of how technology has taken over America.

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  138. Jason has a very good point and I think that there is always a point of no return when you cant go back an example is that now that we have electricity we will never go back to candles and I don't believe that they have passed that point although I think that they are very close.

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  139. Kyle-maybe when Montag began talking, the dog heard him and found out all that he needed to know about Montag's books, so he left quickly before they came out of the house to check on it.

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  140. To answer Alex's question: I think that we are born with our human nature. We are born selfish and wanting to do bad things. When you have a two-year-old child, what does he/she do the second his mother turns away? Does the one thing he/she's not allowed to.

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  141. Mrs. Moritz, i was really confused about the subway part.

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  142. Sorry that my comments are late =(

    The hound is programmed to not attack unless told to. BUT! In most movies, the technology is smarter. I-Robot, it's true. In 451, I think the dog is actually attracted to Montag's break-the-law-ness.

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  143. @ Gabby and Lauren
    There was an annoying toothpast commercial playing over the intercom of the subway and he was trying to memorize part of the bible. It was driving him crazy, but not literally. :)

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  144. I was also confused about the subway part, i didnt even know where he was going

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  145. @ lauren-
    I disagree with your statement about Beatty. I think that he has gathered knowledge over the years as a result of his curiosity about books.

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  146. @ Kelly: Montag is trying to read the Bible, but the speakers on the train are very very loud, muffling up concentration on anything, so no one can think. Montag yells out in protest to the noise, and everyone is looking at him weird...

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  147. Luc, he was going to Fabers house.

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  148. Thanks Gabby! I didn't get the memorizing part, but that makes sense now. He was worried about losing the Bible because Beatty might come for it, so he wanted to memorize it.

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  149. @ Derek
    This seems to be like the chances we have. This happened during slavery, people had the chance to speak out, but few did. People have chances everyday to make a choice. This choice can have direct or indirect consequences, but in the end it always has an effect. Why would people choose to speak out now when they had never before?

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  150. is there even a dog realy? or is the dog just a metaphor for something deeper.

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  151. Joy, that brings us back to the point about humans having a natural sense of curiosity.

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  152. Ethan, yes that did happen but this is much farther into the future, and besides, that quote still stated that the war hasnt started yet.

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  153. Lauren: Apperantly, they're parents are bring up they're children differently than we do today, so what's they're human nature?

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  154. I think that we are over-analyzing the dog, that the author only put it in there to show how paranoid Montag is right now.

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  155. About the subway scene-
    Why would people want the speakers on the subway so loud? Did the "govt" make it that way to keep people from having time to think?

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  156. Er... no. I dissagree Arika. I think the dog is attracted to Montag's Break-The-Law-Ness, and it is going to Montag just to kill him for reading books. No deep metaphor, just real facts.

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  157. For Sarah's question: there's really only one man speaking out--Montag. He choose the present time because he didn't some prompting. He didn't think about all these new ideas until he met Clarisse.

    I agree with what Sarah said about most people not speaking out. Most people are afraid of the consequences.

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  158. what if Montag is from the government and his job is to reveal people like Faber. I was just thinking about that.

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  159. @ Joy: i think that thats why they play it so loudly. Like when montag was trying to memorize the Bible, the noise was making it hard for him to concentrate on anything besides the ccommerical.

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  160. definatly agree with suzy. the dog just represents the paranoia of motag.

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  161. It's not a dog. It is a mechanical hound.

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  162. I really don't think the dog is relevant at all to the reading.

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  163. And the mechanical hound was at the door.

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  164. Montag is open to Faber because he saw Faber with a book, or so he suspected. So hey! I remember this guy, I think he had a book! I'll go to him!

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  165. I think Faber still has a faint suspicion of Montag being a spy. He can't be too careful, because he will lose all his books and possibly his life if Montag turned out to be a spy.

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  166. Do you think Faber could be a symbol in life, or just a normal character?

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  167. Is there even a possibility that Montag would blackmail Faber? Why?

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  168. Alex: I don't think that human nature has to do with how you are raised. The humans in F451 are born with the same human nature we have now. They want bad things, just like we do today. The difference is, the things they want are on a different scale. Beatty wants power, no matter what the cost to everyone else. Montag used to like burning books, and he thought it was FUN to burn books and hurt people. It's the same thing with the two-year-old child, just it's on a biggere scale with the adults.

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  169. Ethan-
    It never said Montag saw Faber with a book.

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  170. if the dog is a symbol what might montags wife represent what might she have in common with the hound

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  171. faber would do anything tod get his hands on the bible because to him, it doesnt matter what type of book it is, to him litterature is litterature and when it comes down to it, thats all that matters.

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  172. I have a question though: If the mechanical hound was at the door, why do you think it showed up?

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  173. I agree with Ethan, Montag feels like he has a safety net with Faber. I'm sure Faber is tarry of Montag, but also wants to trust him.

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  174. Luc- I think that Faber could represent all of the people in the world that know that something in the grand scheme of things is wrong, but something is keeping them from speaking out.

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  175. I think that that is a very good point that Eric brought up. I think that even though they think of technolgy as society, in reality it is not. Mildred is confusing technology with people and she doesn't know why her family should love her. This is one of the major problems. Why does Montag handle the book out in public? Isn't he concerned that people will suspect that the fireman is guilty? I think that all the people will be curious in one way or another because it is natural for people to have a little curiousity.

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  176. @ Gabby: Yes, it did on page 75 when montag remembers seeing Faber in the park: He thought Faber had a Book...

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  177. Lauren: Then off of what you're saying, do you think that their human nature eventually vanishes?

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  178. Does anyone else think that Faber could be, in some way, related to Clarisse?

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  179. What does Montag actually know about religion? Does he have strong religious or otherwise personal beliefs?

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  180. @David
    I think Beatty is trying to frighten Montag. He knows he's afraid of the hound and knows it will get to him.

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  181. I like what Arika said about Faber just wanting to read. When you haven't been able to have something for so long, it doesn't matter in what condition you get it back. For example, if you haven't eaten for three days, you'll eat any food someone gives you because you are SO hungry. It's the same with a book. It doesn't matter what book it is.

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  182. I disagree Arika, to Faber, the bible was one of the most valuable books left in their country.

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  183. To Cole: I don't belive that the wife has anything in common with the dog and I don't believe she stands for anything.

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  184. I don't think he is related. I believe that if we inferred he was related to Clarisse, then we'd have to think that all other people that had books were related to her.

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  185. Alex- I think that people are so far immersed in technology, that eventually their human nature does vanish because they have everything they need right there in front of them, they don't have to think anymore.

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  186. Well, quality, means the features. And they cause people to think. The government doesn't like book's quality, so they censored it so people wouldn't think. This is basically what Faber said

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  187. Why would Beatty want to frighten Montag? They are both interested in books, what's the problem?

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  188. Mrs. Mortiz: But how will the hound have showed up at the door if it had to be programmed to hunt him, if it is supposed to be at the firehouse?

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  189. I agree with Lauren, she makes a good point. When you have been deprived, you will do anything to have that one thing.

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  190. I think that Faber is a good example of the quote. "Just because you are the only one that believes it, does not mean you are wrong."

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  191. Rachel-
    We're not sure if Beatty is interested in books. We only know, for sure, that Montag is.

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  192. i dissagree with david. it specificly syas in the book that he was not a religious man. but i do agree with the fact that he still thought it was substantial.

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  193. Alex: No, I don't think their human nature eventually vanishes. Beatty still wants power; nothing has happened to his human nature. Montag, however, has "learned his lesson." What you have to do is learn to fight your human nature. If I did everthing my human nature told me to do, I might lie and steal and do other bad things. However, you have to fight human nature and do the opposite of what it tells you.

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  194. Gabby: I think that Clarisse and Faber are not directly related, but they are both intellectuals and outside thinkers.

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  195. Quality depend on how relevant the book is to your life. Like the inner circle said it is a personal opinion on whether or mot the book means something.

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  196. I agree with Mrs. Mortiz's comment about the hound because Montag told Beatty about it and I think it is extremely possible because it is programed and since Beatty is fire captain then he has the most access in the fire house

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