Good Morning everyone.
I think that firefighters challenging the system will have consequesnces because it is part of the society but there consequences will be delayed in order for the firefighters to correct the mistakes.
There is always a consequence to everytime you challenge the system. The consequence could be harsh or slack due to where you stand. If you are a regular person, or an odd person, the consequence would be less, but with a firefighter, there would be less of a consequence, but there still would be one.
I agree with Courtney that if you are part of the system you have some leniancy but also there is more pressure on you to stay in control of your job in the system.
I think that if a firefighter had books, almost always would burn his own books or turn them in. Since most of the firefighters don't think like Montag does, that they would not be able to live with themselves when they know that they are doing something bad.
I think there wont be consequences if your with the system. If you do things right no one will notice you've done them at all. the only consequences you'll have are when your challenging the system and not with it.
I think that the rules are looser for the firefightera than they are for just regular citizens. They need the firefighters in thier society so that they are less likely to be punished. This leads to special rule like you can have a book for 48 hours.
I think that even though they are part of the system, they still have consequences. Just because you are part of it, doesn't mean you always agree with it,and you could get in trouble for that.
Everyone had consequences, no matter how much power you have.
But no matter what there is always a consequence for challenging the system.They are talking about firefighters mainly but what about the other jobs? What are the other jobs in this society?
Molly is right, even if one of the fire fighters friends had books they would still burn them because they thought it was for the so called, "greater good"
I agree with Casey when he states that if firefighters challenge the system, then there will be consequences; however, In this book the firemen are like the the force that enforces the law, so who would enforce the law when the law enforcers break them?
I don't think most firefighters would challenge the system at all because of their strict beliefs in it. But if they did, like Mongtag is, then there will be a small consequence.
I agree with Aaron. I believe that the government will kind of ignore when their government officials challenge the system. I believe the government still has to punish their officials, or the people will be upset by the favoritism. I also think that the government doesn't really think many of the firefighters will have this problem, so there will not be a huge demand to fix it.
I think even the firemen are responsible. I don't think anyone s above the law in this system.
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I think that most people in this society will not challenge the system, because they don't see a problem with it. Everyone is happy, but they are also blind. The government only allows people to see and do what it wants them to do. The people will most likely not challenge the system if they can't find anything to change.
I think this "aquaintance" talk is related to their society. Because no one thinks in depth, there could be no personal conversations. Mildred and Montage show this by their disfunctional marriage. They never seem to talk but just say how was your day and the program... This is how everyone seems to be.
i think firemen would burn there friends houses because there not even close to anyone, there all self centered and have no relationships like the ones we have today. But Montag is different he could of burned down Faber's house but hes his friend, those two are whats left of the few different people.
The fire in itself isn't good, the good is the equality. Burning the books with fire just causes the equality.
I agree with what madeline said about them not loving and caring about each other. I think that is the goal of the government. To have a society that appears to be perfect but I think that we are learning that the society is far from perfect because there is little affection being shown ever and I think that loving and caring for people, not for fire, is part of a perfectly happy life.
Of course there will be a consequence if the firemen challenge the system. They are viewed as the protectors and enforcers of the society, so if they broke the rules they would be degrading that image. It seems as if the government will do anything to sustain this image, which also means there will be very harsh punishments.
I don't think that anyone in this peticular society would even think about challenging the system because they all just do what they are told and would never imagine anything so "terrible"
I think that the consequences for firemen are not really set as much as the peoples' consequences. So far in the book nothing has been mentioned about the firemen's houses being burned. The firemen have access to the books before they are burned so if all of them are like Montag then they might have books hidden in there house but nobody really cares as long as most books are gone.
I disagree with Will because of the way Beatty talked about firefighters becoming curious and challenging the system that it seemed that firefighters have tried before. Also I think that Montag will be treated like everyone else if he doesn't burn the books within 48 hours.
i think that hes going to make copies of the books that he has and start a revolution, and frame the firemen like they said.-let the Salamander eat its own tail
I think that people who are the system who try to challenge it either get more leniency or a greater consequence. The people look up to government authorities because they are the example of how to follow the law. They might get more leniency because when you work in the government, you know the ways to get around consequences.
I do not think Montag's books will get burnt because he and the professor are going to devise a plan to take down the firemen society and the government.
Sorry I was late. Computer problems again.Good question Courtney, what does water represent? Will that come up in the book? I think Molly is right. All the books will eventually be burned. Except the Bible. He'll save that one. And get caught. But someone'll save him. Probably Faber. I disagree with Brent about how Mildred likes the gov. more than Montag. I don't think anyone has any emotion towards the government. Its like a fire hydrant. Nobody cares about it. They just know that it is there and that it has to be there. And there'll be consequences for removing it. Interesting analagie with the gay marriage law Phillip.
I think that Montag may not turn in or burn the books within 48 hours because he knows that there is something special about them. Also I think he will continue to hide them from Mildred.
the mob gets what they want
I think that the reason the society is so "perfect" is because of the saying ignorence is bliss. In this society the government's goal seems to make sure that no one really gets involved in what is going on. That was part of the reason books became "bad" was because it provoked deep thought. In the book it even said that they replaced buttons with zippers to minimize the time in the morning that people could spend thinking.
Maybe Montag will introduce the books to Beatty and he will like them so he won't make him burn it.
I believe that there will be consequences for the firefighters, but they will not be as severe. The firefighers are constantly around books, so it is natural human nature that they will become curious about the books. I think this is why Beatty says they allow the firemen to keep books for 48 hours. He wants to let the men have that curiosity persued. After the men will MOST LIKELY get bored with the books, the problem is solved.
I agree that no one can be judged if they are the same. It kind of goes along with Communism again and the idea of everyone being the same will solve all the social problems but it really doesn't.
Well Montag makes an effort to trust and love Mildred so he might trust her with his secret of the books; however, Mildred doesn't care about Montag so there is nothing stopping her from turning Montag in for the books. That's also what is expected from the people, when someone has books you turn them in. That's just how it is in the society.
I think that is a great question. Do you think Beatty secretly wants to read books, but plays the "fireman" role to cover for his need to read???
I agree with Phillip however many people in Fahrenheit 451 want to be normal they just have no motive to change.
I agree with Brandon because he has a good point that if people don't really know what is going on then there isn't any trouble in society.
I think that Captain Beatty is a "one of them" because since he is in charge, if anyone challenges him he can shut them down. Also, he has great knowledge of books and the only way he could know about them is if he possessed them.
OF COURSE BEATTY DOESN"T THINK THAT THE BOOKS NEED TO BE KEPT. He's the leader of the burning. He wouldn't of had that whole speech in his head and not believe a bit of it.
@Matt/Brent, I don't think it's that Mildred likes the government more than Montag it's that she is afraid of the government. But even then I don't think that Mildred has the emotion to be afraid, maybe she just enjoys having someone else work out all the problems.
I disagree with Sidney because Captain Beatty has already read a few books and he extremely disliked them.
I think that it was just curiosity that drove him to take home the books.
I think Captain Beatty is a moderate in the situation because I think he doesn't know what is necessarily right or wrong because in this society there isn't a clear line. Captain Beatty obviously has a large knowledge of books but he is obviously ok with burning him. I think we will find out Captain Beatty's opinion will become more evident in the near future.
@Brandon--Are you sure, or is that just a cover.
The other firefighters probably follow in the influence of Beatty based on what we've read so far. There hasn't been an instance where one of them has retaliated to one of Beatty's lectures to Montag in the fire unit.
I think that water symbolizes in-equality. It breaks the equality that the fire represents when gets rid of the books. I think the firemen also represen equality, but Montag represents in equality because of the books. There will always be that difference between the two, and Montag is a good example of that.
I don't think that Beatty wants to read. He could, but he would've had to do a lot to come up with that passionate speech about why books and being different were bad. I think that he understands when people have the desire to read and sees the curiosity, but he does not wish to read himself.
I think that there probably are other firefighters with books. It would be very hard not to gain an interest in books when your profession, everything you do is involved with books. I think that multiple firemen that are curious about books and are willing to break the law to find out more.
I don't think that there are any other firemen that want to read books. If there were Montag would of noticed that and gone to their house instead of Faber's.
I think that being a firefighter did help Montag persuade himself because it decreases his chances of being caught. We don't know anything about any other firefighters. I request that all talk of them be stricken from the record.
i think Beatty isn't in favor of books but at some point in time he did have books. If you listen to his rant he knows a bit on books. I think he is exactly like Montag, he got a hold of books. But then what happened to him is, society bit back at him and he stopped with books. Maybe this will happen to Montag
I think Beatty is curious as well but he is just on one side of the spectrum where Faber s on the otherside
I was wondering: Why is it that the one book that starts this whole problem/story is The Bible? Do you think that is significant?
I agree with Brandon and Sydney. If he already read a few books to prove any misconceptions, he wouldn't read one again because he didn't like them.
I think that Montag knew he wasn't going to get caught, I think he thought that he wasn't going to be able to keep the secret he was hiding. It was such a burden on his concious and he wouldn't be able to take it anymore.
Oh ya, I forgot about the fact that Beatty already knows about books and why he made that whole speech. That was a stupid comment...
matt f. is Fontneau. Matt F. is Farley
Mrs. Moritz's question is a good one. Beatty could have a secret love for books yet has had bad experiences with supporting them.
I do think that captain Beatty is curious about books. I mean every person tries to hide what they feel strongly about, but is frowned upon by society or others around them. Beatty very forcefully enforces and exagerates the bad of books. So yes I do think he is trying to hide the fact that he wants to read.
Don't judge a book by it's cover. Just kidding. These are all good points
Is there feedback?
Why do all the firefighters worship fire so much? Do other people in this society worship fire like they do?
Captain Beatty has probably read a lot of books but I do not think that he has a stash of them. He knows the laws and if he does not read the books or keep them then he is still very tempted. Montag keeps the books and when he met Faber he showed his true opinions on burning books by never trying to go after Faber and burn his books. Does Faber still have books and they are hidden or did he get rid of them already?
NateD. What is that noise???
@Brandon, I think it may have a significantce but why this is significant I don't know. Ray Bradbury could of been telling us that The Bible will help us understand things or it could of been a random book.
i think the cover shows that fire men are wrapped in books, and that means it leaves to themselves burning with them or because of them
I disagree with Mollie. People don't try to hide what they feel strongly about
I agree with you Matt F. It would be very hard to resist the philosophies and ideas of books when you see them daily. The firemen would have a natural wonder into why books were banned and what is contained in them.
I'm sure Captain Beatty has read books, but he doesn't read them for pleasure. He is curious to find answers and maybe learn how to keep society in order because he is basically in charge.
Answering Brandon's question, I think it's the start of the first title that we know is the bible because it is the starting ground for many conflicts, especially wars. I think that the bible also allows some people to freely think.
Matt~In a society where it is frowned upon to act or feel different, do you think the people are still as willing to voice their opinions?
I disagree with Matt F because sometimes people will hide what they feel strongly about if there is a strong consequence
Good MAlbyn--so do you think Beatty likes to read the books and his demeanor is just a cover?
Mrs Moritz hat are you talking about? I really don't r Ray Bradbury well enough to compare the character.
@MattMaybe not in our society today butin the book.
I think that Professor Faber is not written in the image of Ray Bradbury because of his cowardness. It would seem as if Bradbury were to create a character in the image of himself that he would make him brave and strong, kind of like Montag. Could Bradbury be Montag?
I don't think Faber represents Bradburry. Faber stays behind the scenes in his work, but Bradburry wrote this book, which had some outrageous ideas fo his time. That was pretty big and Fahrenheit 451 is a well known book so his work is more out there. In that way Faber and Bradburry are not similar.
i can see Bradbury as Montag, someone who follows society and then eventually breaks free and needs to get a message out
I agree with Mitch and Matt. The firemen definitely have a strong curiosity about books after all of these yeqars of burning.
@Matt, I agree but in the book they aren't hiding it because they don't feel strongly about anything really. In our society people are always making decisions and acting on what they feel strongly about.
I agree with Brandon. He could like the books, because people do hide things from society. There is the chance though he doesn't have a true interest in them though.
Will is right. Along with Mitch.
Well, Ray Bradbury is sort of "paving the future" whereas Montag is either "paving back to the past" or "covering up the path"
Reading a book out of paper and and reading a book on an iPhone doesn't make a difference Liz.
I think you actualy could judge this book by it's cover. You can already see what it's going to be about because it has the picture of the burning paper man. However you still should not put it down because it has a weird cover.
I think that this is set in Great Britain because they spell favorite like this: FAVOURITE
I think that Captain Beatty likes books on some level but is afraid to say what he really thinks because people will look down on or think differently of him. That is what communism does to society, it makes people afraid to say what they think because they fear it will get them in trouble.
The rest of the world is not like this. This is shown by when Montag talks about the rumors that they were starving.
Good question Riley. I think in four years we will be so overloaded with technology that all we will have to do for work is sign papers. Everything else will be done electronically.
@Ben, I think you are right that Bradbury is like Montag because Bradbury was speaking out to our society about hes idea of the future and technology. And Montag is also speaking out to anyone that will listen/anyone that will understand, like Faber.
Beatty may like to read books and his speech is just his cover, but how do we know that his ideas are real or fake. At this point one can infer about his true intentions, especially from him saying that there are rules that you can keep a book for 48 hours. Did Beatty maybe come up with this rule so HE could read books?
there government seems to run off lies to censor something other than books, maybe the war. Maybe they hide books for another reason.
I agree with Matt F. It's not the paper that makes books banned, but the thought it provokes and its content. Liz, you do bring up a good point though. What if books were also digital. Do they have cyberman?
Liz,I thought your comment on the I phone was good because I think that books are leaving society and turning into electronics such as the reader thing on the I phone or the kindle reader which is the same idea. So I think that in a way books are leaving society and turning into electronics just like in Farenheit 451.
I thought it was very interesting when Montag wanted help from Faber to learn, retain and even comprehend the text he is reading. In that society the people read text but not to relate to it or understand but only to memorize the words. Since Faber was a professor and Montag remembered that from their first meeting he knew that is who he should go to in order to answer questions about reading.
If books are illegal, does that mean writing is also illegal??
@NateD. In your assigned reading have you read about the women talking about the presidents yet?
@Brandon,What's a cyberman?
I agree with Shaffer, it kind of goes with Communism again. The people think they are in charge, but the government controls their every move.
What was that bit about Cyberman? Brendan?
I think there are technological spys, not physical humans because of the mechanical dog. The dog's job is to search and destroy just like a spy. Maybe there are cameras watching peoples every move?
@Will, if the only job we can have is sign papers what does that mean for our economy, how will we surrport ourselves? And if that is all we do will we still go to college, or will we just sit around all day? Doing nothing like Mildred?
I agree with Will. Our society is coming closer and closer to be come compleatly run by electronics. Many of our school assignments are even becoming electroinic.
EmilyM I think that there is a very stong possibility that he did create this rule so he could read. If Beatty reads it does explain a lot. That would show where he pulls all this information about the past.
@ Pillip There are billions and billions of books in the world. They cant burn them all.
@ Emily,I think that it is not illegal to write books as long as it is never published or distributed.
I think That the people to keep order is the firemen and people don't need to be kept under control because no one wants to challenge the system.
I agree with Brandon. Beatty does seem smarter than the average person.
To MattF, well there are fireman to burn books, but when books are electronic who will "burn" them? I just said cyberman because it came to my mind.
@Emily M. Because books are illegal, the knowledge they hold is lost. The majority of people don't really think so what would they write about anyway? It wouldn't be of any value.
@Casey, but if people are writing books they still have them around so wouldn't they be treated the same and burnt?
Good point Madeleine. there will always be rebels. Look at 4/11 and marijuana. How many murderers happen a year. Murder is illegal. Illegal stuff still happens all the time.
Good question Emily, I'm not sure if writing would be illegal. It is kind of hard to know for sure because, it may depend on what people are wrting, like maybe a journal. That shouldn't be illegal.
I agree with Madeline when she says that people do things more when they are banned. I does bring a strong temptation that causes you to want to try the thing that is banned. For an example, just look at the misuse of drugs today.
@Caseydoes that mean that people are only allowed to write if they are the only ones who are going to see it? That is like someone who thinks. People who think are frowned upon, so does that mean that people who write anything are frowned upon?
Mmoritz, I believe that Captain Beatty previously read books but realized that they contain useless rambling and ludicrous philosophies. I think this because he talks about books to Montag as if books are completely useless and insane.(Sorry for the delayed answer I just noticed your question.)
@Emily I think that they do not want the writers to write about anything that they want to. They probably make the writers create discussion over topics they want not an idea that a writer comes up with.
Science books have been banned by the church for thousands of years.
To Brandon:I Think that the dogs and other fake animals will destroy the electronic books.
So if not eveywhere in the world bans books wouldn't people just go where they could freely read? I think that the book is speaking about everywhere in the world otherwise the society wouldn't of come as far as it has.
All this talk about how often rules are broken leads to the phrase, "rules are made to be broken."
I agree with Madeline. When the Prohibition amendment was passed it was supposed to make alcohol illegal. In the end people still got alcohol and crime rate went through the roof.
So we all agree that Beatty is anti-books. Nobody thinks he may secretly appreciate them?
i dont think that all the books would be gone, because think of all the books in the world now. there are 5 million copies of Fahrenheit 451 so if that's one book and theirs tons more, there are billions of books!
I agree with William and Madeline. The temptation to "challenge the system" is greater than the will to abide with society.
@Emily, yes the writers would be frowned upon because they are giving people ridiculous ideas and reasons to read.
Yeah I agree with Willy because even though we are banned from drugs, people do it. I know that I say to my mom that rules are made to be broken but I'm kidding. PEople see our world as when something is restricted, it as seen as a challenge to do. PEople break the law during the day without even knowing it. But there are also those few dumb rules that have no meaning but people are penalized for.
Matt Farley has a point, the smartest minds in the world have been banned by the Catholic Church. Galileo's works were banned by the Pope.
@Ben.If rules are made to be broken, then does that mean every rule ever written has been broken? I think that this is true, especially in this book. There are always going to people with books, no matter what the laws say.
Mrs. Moritz- Just from the way he talked about books, I don't think there is a way Beatty appreciates them.
@Moritz, I think Beatty once was curious about the books but found that he didn't understand them and so he hates the books and burns them.
@Zoe The people don't care about books. In their minds they have everything have could ever want. Why would they want to go somewhere else in the world that might not be as rich or as "good" as their community for something they think they don't need.
Books are legal today but in this their illegal. A lot of science principles were banned and illegal in the past and now we use them everyday. "Things legal today are illegal tomorrow."
@MoritzI do think that there is a slight possibility that Beatty wants to read books. Is it possible that he was the on who orignially came up with the idea to let firefighters have books for his own benefit?
I agree with tanner about dumb rules and rules people don't even know they are breaking. So are there a lot of rules in this society that go unoticed until they get penalized for it?
@EmilyM:I agree that rules were meant to be broken because if people didn't break rules then we wouldn't need law enforcement.
MMorritz I still think that Beatty does have a slight apprectiation for books, he just doesn't want to show it, because he is part of the system and doesn't want those that look up to him to look down upon him if he was caught.
The society would not be threatened by firefighters if nobody had books anymore. I agree with the people who are saying that the government and the firefighters would lose their power and status over the people if no more books needed to be burned. The scared people worry about being caught having books but anyone who is not involved with books is not worried about the firefighters and anything they are doing.
I agree with Ben and Matt Farley on how some of the greatest minds to ever live have been banned by the Church.
Hardships make the hearts grow fonder? Maybe? Maybe not?
To contradict Liz did Montag ever love her.
I think that Montag wants to love Mildred and trust her. But he know longer knew who Mildred was and was trying in one last attempt to connect with her.
In response to Linsey's question, it will pull them apart. All Mildred could care about was her TV programs and her friends coming over. She still shows the signs of being a conformed person and will most likely turn him in or just not trust or talk to him as much.
Yeah casey. I mean like jaywalking or things like loitering? I mean cmon you get a fine for hanging around? I understand how like doing bad things while hanging out would be bad but just being there is stupid.
I think that the books will pull them farther apart. I think that he feels that Mildred is a last ditch effort for montag to get help with understanding until trying the professor. I think that Montag accelerated the separtion by showing the books.
Great point Sidney. If everyone in society behaved, then there would be no need for police in our society. In their society, they wouldn't need firefighters if people didn't sill have books.
@Moritz Beatty knows too much to not have read any books. I think his anti-book speech is just an act. Beatty might not necessarily like the books, but he likes the power of being fire cheif. The power from knowledge would be a great draw for Beatty and that is why he reads the books, to be more powerful than others.
I agree with torin7 because in order to be feared you need a reason and when the firemen can no longer burn books they are no longer feared.
Ya I agree with Mitch who agrees with Ben and Matt Farley.
A little of topic but can we meet your daughter at the end of class Mrs. Moritz?
Yeah Nathan. I wonder if before all the things that split Mildred and Montag they were happy. Maybe before this, people were different so that's why they loved each other.
Zoe, Beatty would of defiantly understood the books. After reading his monologue directed towards Montag, Beatty seems as a very intellectual person. His statements contained thought and inferences, which concludes that he can understand a book.
We don't know anything about anyone. We can't make any assumptions.
Something just popped into my brain: Do you think that firemen want to be feared???
i agree with Shaffer about how the people Bradbury centers around represents everyone in there society.
So if Beatty does read books and own them. Can he get in trouble for that? Sense he is the Captain of the firefighters.
Ooooooooooo good question Sidney.
Tanner and NathanI think that they were never happy. Neither of them even know how, when or where they met and Mildred clearly doesn't care. I think that there is a standard on who and when you marry in this community depending on who you are so I think it was more of a pressed marriage.
Sidney, I think that if fireman had a choice they would rather be feared than loved. They would rather be the one that everyone respects out of fear rather than respect of the good things they've done.
@SidneyI don't think that they want to be feared going into the job, but they definitly enjoy it after starting the job.
I agree with phillip. The whole society in books is pretty much based off of a couple people. Society is viewed as similar to the main character even if they are compleatly different.It goes back to the saying one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.One charcter can ruin all of society.
Sidney, I don't think they want to be feared, but they come off that way so people are afraid because they see the things like books before they're burned. I guess they're just different. Firemen now are good people who save us so...
Respect, in an aspect comes from fear so they would clearly want to be feared.
A lot of times, when authority figures do something wrong, they try to cover it up as well as they can because either they don't want to lose their job or they don't want people to think less of them.
So what are we in a war over?
I'm not sure if people really respect them. The people just see what is set there.
Random thought but who are Mildred and Montag's parents? Clarisse actually has a real family but we never hear anything about the other people's parents.
I think that firemen want to be feared because if they weren't then people in the society could care less about having books or not. The people could think of new ways to have and hide books if they did not feel threatened by the firemen and their power to burn books. Since the firemen have the power and people are scared they respect and follow their orders.
i don't think the soldiers are going to war, because Montag mentioned that they've already won two nuclear wars so maybe this is another nuclear war and not Totalwar.
Mrs. Moritz,These are my thoughts going subject to subject on each topic so they might jump around a little and change subjects abruptly.If people in high places challenge the system I believe they are more likely to be punished harsher to be made an example of. Especially in this society where peace is kept through fear rather than the most popular ideas being put into law, like America, I think that important people would be punished harsher. Unless they are the absolute top of the chain, which could only occur in a dictatorship, someone could punish whoever broke the rules. Even though Beatty is the Cheif he still must have a superior and even he would be punished. However, I do think that Beatty does use his power to allow himself to read because of his references to books. If he didn't like the first book he read he wouldn't have read more. Also, he doesn't just make references to the beginning of books. I mention this because if he doesn't like a book, most likely he would only read the first part of it and then put it down. He wouldn't keep reading something he despised. I think the Bible is so important to Montag and is attacked so much is because it contains many of the things the government doesn't want people to know. The story of Moses rebelling against the Pharacies in Egypt is just one of many stories about challenging the system. The Bible also shows stories of compasion and love which the government seems to try to subdue. I really think Bradbury would model Faber more after himself because Bradbury is the one making the ideas and pulling the strings. I think he makes Montag the brave one to influence the reader more. So with Bradbury as the Faber and the reader as Montag, Bradbury is conveying the message of "Here are my ideas in this book. Go use them and put them into action"