Monday, January 25, 2010

Per. 3 Little Brother Fishbowl/Liveblog

Discussion Chapters 6-12

118 comments:

  1. i really have no idea kyle, but if i were to guess i would think that it would not end the same, even though it is based sort of on 1984, but little brother is very different also, so i think that it doesn't have to end the same.

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  2. I think the ending will be different to 1984, because unlike Winston, Marcus knows about the system and is in on the system.

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  3. All the people on the Xnet are not rebels, since Marcus was just handing out games. A lot of them may be rebels, but not all of them.

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  4. i think it is a opposit of 1984 in wich they will succed

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  5. I disagree with Alex. The whole society is not rebels, if they all acted the same, then the police would not have gassed them at the concert. They gassed them because all the neighbors complained about it.

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  6. @ Sandra, they are both leaders, and rebelling against the system. They are also very arrogant, and trying to bring other people into their own situations.

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  7. I think that it is possible that he will be shot down because of all of the parallels between 1984 and Little Brother. Cory Doctorow may have wanted the ending to be like 1984.

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  8. I thought that the plots of 1984 and Little Brother the teens can be related to the proles in 1984 because of what Trudy Doo said about the teens have to take the country back.

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  9. I agree with Eric. Take Marcus's dad for an example. He seems to trust the DHS and the US government. People like him are not rebels.

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  10. Both Winston and Marcus, as cliche as it sounds, challenge the system and go against common thought to work for what they know is right.

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  11. I don't think that the guy at the coffee shop is an undercover agent because he seems to be protecting his clients

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  12. I agree with Sarah, why would he do that if he were an undercover agent??

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  13. joy has a point but look at the differences winston tried to figure out te system and marcus knows the system

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  14. @ Sarah: but O'Brien seemed to be helping Winston and Julia with that room and then he turned out to be an undercover agent

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  15. The Declaration of Independence was written by people who feared an overpowering government, and the government is taking over their lives. They have a right to overthrow it, and Marcus is trying to express this to his classmates.

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  16. Marcus reads the Declaration of Independence for support. He wants some support and some reassurance that he is right. Van said that Marcus is no better than a terrorist, and I think that Marcus wants to be told that he is right and that he is better than a terrorist. That he is protecting people's freedom.

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  17. I disagree with Eric because at the concert they say don't trust anyone over twenty five and to think for yourselves and that they shouldn't be controlled by the DHS and I believe that the DHS thought that everyone at that concert was becoming free minded and started wanting to rebel so they saw them as a threat so they neutralized the threat.

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  18. who is the obrian in little bro if there is one

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  19. The reading of the Declaration of Independence exhibits the fact that the government is not always in the right. It is reminding us that it is not only our right, but our duty to question the government's actions. The population, for the most part, is blindly following the dangling carrot that the government placed. Their anger is being channeled towards a scapegoat (terrorists) just like in 1984 with the Two Minutes of Hate.

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  20. I agree that some people are ready to get rid of rights, and loosing sight of what the government was based on. It seems like people who are using Xnet are doing the right thing even though it is perceived as wrong.

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  21. It's hard to know who to trust, because you don't know who's inside the DHS or the 'Party'. They could be on either side. Ange for all we know could be part of the DHS trying to see if Marcus is M1k3y, almost like Winston trusted Carrington in 1984.

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  22. @ Taylor: Good point, why would that one kid even think that they didn't have a right to overthrow the govt?

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  23. Derek
    In 1984 Winston did know about the mini love and was part of the outter party when he was taken down. Marcus was also part of the system when he was interviewed.

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  24. If there was a character parallel to O'brian in Little Brother, we won't know until the end of the book.

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  25. @ Eric: Even though the government is dangling carrots in front of us, how many of the people in the book are rabbits?

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  26. I agree with Eric. You need to question and analyze your government if you are going to have a democracy. Democracy is about voting for your leaders and you can't make a good, educated vote without analyzing the current leaders.

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  27. I agree with Taylor that when he reads the Declaration he is telling his class that when the government is no longer the government wanted by the population then the people of the nation have a right to overthrow it and establish a government that they want.

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  28. I agree with Rachel because the adults are either used to being watched and having been accused or they aren't monitored as much as the kids.

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  29. but what if what the public wants isn't right

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  30. Could Charles be a member of a modern day "thought police"?

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  31. Charles has always had the same personality. He is more like the adults in the way that he follows the government. He wants to be accepted and feel important so he helps the highest authority.

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  32. @ Mrs. Moritz- I don't know if Charles is an official member of the "thought police" but he could be unofficially on their side. I think he feels like he is doing his duty to his country--like the thought police in 1984--by turning in "traitors" and "security threats".

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  33. By taking away the teacher and replacing her, they were controlling what people were learning and when learning is controlled so are opinions

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  34. @ Cole: That is not the point. The point of a democracy is for the people to rule the people, not having the government control the people. Even if what the people want is wrong, they are controlling their government.

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  35. I think that the teacher was fired, because the school does not want the students changing their perspective

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  36. @Taylor: All the people are rabbits, some of them just got a rotten carrot.

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  37. What do you think happened to Mrs. Galvez? This could have been like what happened to Darryl.

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  38. @ Cole: That's true, what the public wants isn't always the best thing for the nation. Look at society today, yes we have good ideas, but there are concepts that the public has come up with that could "destroy" us.

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  39. @ Taylor- I think that the people should control the government, but I don't know if they always do. During war, we as the civilians are not told everything that is going on. We can vote for leaders who support or do not support the war, but how much do we actually know about what is going on? Take the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts for example. We may support or not support those wars, but what information do we have? how much do we know about what is going overthere? What the media tells us.

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  40. do you think the dhs has the right to fire people do you think that the oversteped their authority do you think the adults relize how things are progresing

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  41. Could Mrs. Galvez really have been fired for what she let happen, or could Charles have stretched the truth?

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  42. I don't think that the government takes away the people and kills them, like in 1984. In a way, I think the government in this book is a little more...civilized(??) than the one in 1984.
    At the worst, they probably did what the DHS did to Marcus, Van, Jolu, and Darryl in the beginning, interrogation.

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  43. The DHS is trying to take over the schools and is censoring the education by telling people that the Bill of Rights can be denounced. They're trying to get their way so any opposement to them is gone so they can control the people so they don't revolt or do any more attacks.

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  44. I agree with Alex. Althogh the teacher did not express her views about terrorism, she furthered the discussion and allowed it to continue.

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  45. I agree with Gabby. The DHS is not the only branch of government. Although they are the one frequently mentioned, they are probably not the most powerful. Other people, like congress and the president--we can assume--control them. The DHS can't do anything to attract the negative attention of the media. They probably won't just take people away an execute them. If people found out, if the MEDIA found out, the DHS would lose respect and support.

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  46. @ Cole: Yes, it is the government's responsibility to keep the schools "clean," but by firing a teacher because she was defending democracy is not being Constitutional.

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  47. I believe that when the students brought up that topic she saw a teachable moment and she rolled with and tied that conversation in with the lesson that she was going to teach. Then when the cameras monitering the class saw this they thought that she was trying to get the class to question what the DHS is doing and if what they are doing is right so they fired her.

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  48. Gabby
    Look what happened to Darryl he never came back. Maybe this is another type of socitey that has taken over and started controlling.

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  49. To discuss Alex's point, our government is supposed to be run by the people, and if the government is firing teachers because they exercised their freedom of speech, it is exactly like the thought police of 1984

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  50. @ Cole: I think that the DHS has so much power and authority in the society that nobody really has the power to stop it. The DHS might not have the right to fire people, but nobod is going to stand up and say that's wrong and get anywhere with it. I don't think that the adults really realize the extent of what is happening

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  51. @sam - kinda like 1984 and Fahrenhiet 451? Where if you oppose the government you get thrown out? I think your right.

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  52. @ Sam- what do you mean by another society? Different people, or a different form of government?

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  53. Religion is a sensitive topic in terms of school discussion present day. One reason it is so sensitive is that there is the fear the teacher will force their views upon students. This also applies to political affiliations, and there is a fine line between expressing views and teaching views.

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  54. I agree with Nick because when a topic comes up that numerous students have questions on, it is almost a reaction for a teacher to help teach them what it means and what is about.

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  55. Sam
    But we never know what exactly happened to Darryl. For all we know his wounds could have been infected and he could have died.
    We have no REAL proof that the government harmed Darryl in anyway.

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  56. Charles really seems to be like someone that wants to side with the government who turns their friends and familiy members in.

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  57. @Derek - that's probably why they fired her. They though Ms. Galvez was unstable and could start shouting out her beliefs on politics and the whole security scheme going on in the city. Your right, it is a sensitive topic.

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  58. @ Joy- I think that the media has the power to stop te DHS. If they could gather evidence against the DHS and print it or show it on TV, the DHS could get a bad reputation. Without the public support and cooperation, they won't have as much power. Like a president who makes a huge mistake. He probably won't get reelected again.

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  59. It really depends what the files say on how she got fired, and the descriptions on why she got fired

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  60. I think that the teacher being fired for talking about a certain topic shows what the government is trying to control. The government doesn't want the people to revolt against them. If the government controls what teachers are talking to their students about they can in a way, control the minds of the students, and I think that that is sort of what the government trying to do.

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  61. She probably will be able to teach, because she didn't do anything really wrong. She would teach at a different place because some people understand that the government shouldn't control what people think.

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  62. If Mrs. Galvez were to never get hired as a teacher, that is the government's doing. It doesn't matter if she was right or wrong, the government is the highest power in the country, they can stop whoever they want from getting any job, they have that power.

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  63. @ Sam: Could Charles be a parallel to Mildred's friends? After all they both turned other people in

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  64. i agree with luaren the media is like the proles in 1984

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  65. @eric - Thats freaky. So you always have to keep in mind that the government controls your life.

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  66. @ Eric- Is the government the highest power? The US is still a democracy and the officials still have to get reelected. They can't cross too many lines if they are concerned about keeping their positions (the president and congress)

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  67. @ Aaron- I disagree with what you said about honors students taking more aggressive stands. A lot--not all--honors students are really concerned about their reputations. Students who have less to lose (less concerned about reputations and grades) I think would be more aggressive than us.

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  68. I think that some people would definitely be a Marcus Jr, but some of us just don't have the time to learn to be an amazing computer hacker. And, since our security isn't anywhere near the scale of LB's, we wouldn't have a need to be a hacker.

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  69. @taylor
    Although people in the U.S. are able to exercise freedom of speech, teachers are unique positions. Freedom of speech is not given to teachers to the fullest extent because they are shaping young minds and children are so impressionable.

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  70. I agree in our society a lot of people have the mind set that "oh its not my department or my job" people never want to do more than they have to

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  71. Lauren: What about the CIA and FBI? Area 51? There's government organizations that control our life a lot more than the president. The CIA doesn't need to go to congress and ask permission to arrest and detain someone. What about Guantanamo Bay? We had no clue what went on there until recently, it's just like the island in Little Brother.

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  72. I completely agree with you, Sarah. People in the US never want to do more than they have to. Even kids. If your mom says take down the laundry, you take down the laundry, but you won't sort it. You won't do any more than you were asked to do.

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  73. i agree with luaren but we need these orginizations

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  74. Lauren
    Like a different out come of today's world. In
    stead of maybe a 1984 socitey a Little Brother socitey.

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  75. @lauren - I agree with that. Honors students have a higher sense of responsibility and reputation. They have a chance to get into college and become a higher figure in the world. But others students that are average/below average tend to do more... outrageously outrageous things.

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  76. @lauren-The people do elect officials, but the president appoints the cabinet and supreme court judges. The president also controls the army and could probably overthrow the rest of the government if he really tried.

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  77. @ Lauren: Yes that is true in our society, but like Kelly said, the society in Little Brother is very different from ours. It is very likely that the DHS controls the media. If it doesn't, then they could probably take steps to make sure that they do get control.

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  78. @ Eric- About the CIA and FBI. Maybe for the most part they can do what they want, but if they step too far out of line, people are going to investigate. There's always the media that could find out something they aren't supposed to. You are never going to have absolute power. Our government has a system of checks and balances. If they detain someone for no good reason and continue to do so, someone will find out.

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  79. @Ethan - Not necessarily. Just because someone's not an honors student doesn't mean that they tend to do more outrageous things. That's a stereotype.

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  80. To go with what David said, in addition to racial profiling there is also profiling by age and general appearance.

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  81. I agree with eric. If you want to do it, you can do it. No one will stop you.

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  82. Joy
    Charles seems to like a O'Brein character he is turning in friends and ratting on the teacher.

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  83. @ Joy: This society in Little Brother is still a democracy. The people still have the power to vote. We also do not know what is happening outside California. What about New York, Colorado, Florida, etc.? The people still do have some rights. I doubt that the DHS controls the media. Remember, we do have a DHS today in the US. There job is to keep the US safe. There are still other branches of government and other people in power to keep the DHS from taking over everything. I don't think the DHS is that powerful yet.

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  84. I agree with David because if there were two people that walked through the door at Target and one was a mom with her kids and one was a teenager there is no doubt that the staff would search the teenager and not the mom.

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  85. we keep talking about the media and how the media could stop people but do they have any power and do we listen too much to the media

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  86. I think that the government of Little Brother did not commit the terrorist attacks. They are so paranoid about find terrorists and interrogating suspects that it couldn't have been them.

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  87. Cole
    I honestly don't think that the media can stop people. It may make people stop and think for a moment, but it can't physically stop anything from happening.

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  88. @ Ian- Yes, the president is the commander and chief of the army, but in order to go to war, they need an official declaration of war from congress. Also, how many military officials will go along with this plan? Many of these military personnel 17-26. Most of the soldiers are not old. These soldiers were also citizens at one point. They could just as easily be you or me someday. They want their rights just as much as we do. I doubt many of them would go along with the president in a takeover.

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  89. @ Derek: but what if they want to up security, wouldn't they want the people to be paranoid.

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  90. @Gabby - Yeah, but then again, lauren said 'not all'. Some honors students will do more outrageously outrageous things than others. Like, someone in the room would probably do something completely outrageous, but I might do something even more outrageous. Or he/she might be doing something even more outrageous. I'm just saying because most Honors students have everything to lose if they fail, they tend to do less outrageous things that might hurt them than those in lower grades because they might not have anything to lose.

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  91. @ Lauren- I disagree about people finding out that the CIA or FBI is doing bad things because they carry out secret operations all over the world, assasinations, observations, and even sabatoge in some cases, that no one in the population will ever find out about except the people in those oranizations and so they won't get punished for it.

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  92. I agree with Ms Moritz, even though things dont happen to us directly, they can still affect us greatly.

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  93. @ Cole- the media can't stop them, but they can prompt the people to act. Like I said before, if the media can get some dirt on the DHS and get the people to not support them anymore, they'll lose some of there power.

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  94. @ Cole i think the media has a HUGE effect on people! the average american watches 4 hrs of tv a day, while driving a car people listen to the radio, most people are somehow connected to the media during the day the views expresses by people conform the views to the world instead of thinking for themselves

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  95. @lauren- But does he need a declaration of war of to attack his own country? It is true that the soldiers would probably not be willing to do this, but he would always have some followers that he could use in his way.

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  96. @ Nick- I don't mean an ordinary civilian like us finding out about the FBI and CIA. Remember back last year when NSA was caught listening into the private phone calls of US soldiers overseas? Workers turned them in. There are people will fill guilty for their actions. Not everyone will go along with it if people start doing really wrong things multiple times. Someone from the inside could accidentally say the wrong thing to a family member, or could rat them out if they get uncomfortable.

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  97. Ange seems to be alot like Julia.

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  98. @ Ian- the president will not get enough supporters. There will be enough military personnel to resist him. Also, what about other countries. Would they really want the US to become a dictatorship? What about other US allies that might come to our aid if asked?

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  99. @taylor
    the government is paranoid not the people.

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  100. If I were to freak out Max right now, that wouldn't make me a terrorist, unless I freaked him out so he would buy me a Starbux or Chipotle. But that isn't an extreme terrorism. I think terrorism comes in levels. There is terrorism so you can tell people to do what you want in a minor scale, like Max and the burrito, and theres the World Trade Center.

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  101. I agree with joy because she justs takes away all of marcus' stress and she just makes marcus happy just like julia with winston

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  102. Maybe Ange is secretly part of the DHS, like O'brien and the thought police!

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  103. @ Derek: Are you kidding? t here are people, like Charles, who are willing to spy on people "for the greater good." This is obviously an effect of the attack.

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  104. Lauren
    If the government is a dictatiorship no one will be able to contact the american allies.

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  105. I believe that Van and Ange are kind of like Julia becuse in the begining Julia doesn't care and is just fine with her life and will continue it just like Van but then toward the end she decideds that she would revolt with him and Ange is ready to do that.

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  106. Oh, right, she's apparently 'trustworthy'. But coudn't someone change her mind?

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  107. @lauren- But who would those countries come to the aid of? The president or the people? I agree with you that some US allies would not like a dictatorship, but other nations might favor a dictatorship. Think about Hitler and Nazi Germany. The reason Hitler was able to take power was because Germany was in distress from the first world war. All it might take was a large terrorist attack to destroy major parts or major people of our nation.

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  108. I agree, they met at a meeting talking about trust, so i think he can trust her, i mean after all he has no know, esp. after she nows he is M1k3y

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  109. The DHS is not trying to control our minds, just our actions.

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  110. @ Sam- Like I said earlier, I doubt it will even get that far. Most of the people serving in the military will not go along with the president's plan. Most likely, he won't even get enough support to START a takeover.

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  111. We seems to be scared into being our own thought police, people want 'safety' so they will do what they can to have it

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  112. I don't think that Ange would rat out Marcus because she most likely thinks he's hot so why would she rat him out? That would ruin her chances with him.

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  113. I think that police officers like Zit and Booger think that they're so important, but no one takes them seriously.

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  114. @ Ian- The US military is one of the best--or the best--in the world. Most countries will NOT want that huge military power controlled by a power hungry dictator. It would be like Hitler and WWII. If a president wanted to take over the US, he would be just like a modern-day Hitler. This time, we have the gift of hindsight, and know what happened during WWII. Some of our other allies, England, Israel, etc. will not want such a huge military controlled by a man who will most likely try to take over other countries.

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  115. "Those who would give up liberty to gain temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benj Franklin (The quote goes SOMETHING like that). I thought I'd bring that up because that means that the people in the city don't deserve the safety they're getting if they go along with it.

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  116. I think that over all the live blog had a lot of good points. Although they were maybe not all put in the best way and into the right words, they had a lot of meaning and power behind them. The thoughts that Cole made really stood out to me and got me thinking about different aspects of the book along with 1984. His question "who is the obrian in little bro if there is one" made me realize there might be a person that betrays Marcus and sells him out to his gov. Along with that, the comparison of ourselves being the thought police and how we call ourselves out was a very interesting part of the blog. I think that the people in the blog should focus more on question raised by the live blog because when the would reference the inner circle, it seemed like they were trying to become the inner circle.

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