i thought this was a very interesting idea. the idea of the sun burning time was a concept that i had never really thought of before, but now that i do i think it was a very good concept!
Well I think he meant that more like the sun is "destroying" time and the firemen were destroying things too, but nobody is making things. They only destroy.
The mechanical hound represents the control the government has over the society. It shows how easily the government can control the people and instill fear.
I think tyhe machanical hound rerpresents what society can become. Instead of being put in jail for a crime, one can be tempporarily paralyzed or rvrn euthanized. It is scary that that is what the worl could become. It also is a form of evil, acting like the henchman to the friemen.
the hound represents society and ufair justice. it, in a way, represents the way things are becuase of its fear but it also showed unjust justice becuase of how it killed without mercy or a oppertunity for the whole "innocent until proved guilty" thing.
I think the mechanical hound represents fear and new technology. I shows that they have other things do stuff for them rather than doing it themselves.
I think the mechanical dog represents horror or feaar in peoples eyes. To show that they should not get out of hand almost like a judge but with no case.
The mechanical dog represents how there is no invinsable(sp) person. If you break a rule the government will find you one way or another and you will be puished. The hound is like the "judge" in court. It desides you fate, which is usually death. Sometimes the felon is just stunned, though. Maybe the hound isn't the fool-proof way of stopping law breaking after all.
The mechanical hound might actualy be trying to represent the take over of the government to the people. The hound is in control. Montag is afraid of the hound - as he bshould rightfully be. the government took away there freedoms and scared them into ignorence, and that ignorence and fear is embodied in te mechanical hound.
I think the mechanical hound is fear and their way of controlling the society. It controls them by putting fear inside of them, because the hound can kill you, will kill you if you do not follow the law.
I think the mechanical dog symbolizes order and a civilized society because he enforces what should be going on in the society. The hound catches criminals who are not obeying the laws like keeping books illegaly.
I think the Mechanical hound represents how the society is. It shows how technology has totaly taken over. Also it is the enforcer of the society. It seems to have more power than any of the firemen. The Dog puts more fear in to people than the firemen.
The sun creates because it began all life on Earth, so this shows that fire can create. Fire can also destroy, like the fire men burning the books and all the knowledge in them.
I think Montag is realizing that no matter what he tries to do to prevent destruction, there will always be destruction because it is just natural. What is unnatural is when fire is purposefully created to burn others and their houses
I think the saying that sun burns time gets to the point that every day the sun rises and sets and the sun is like the sore of every thing and when the sun is burning in the sky that time is passing by. I dont think he was refering to the fire fighters at all.
I think that it was a coincidence that Montag ran other intellectual people. Its not like he had the longitude and latitude coordinates of some clan of book clubs
in a way, sun burns time, becuase the sun moves as the time moves on. and eventually time is forgotten (becuase it was 'burned' by the sun) as liturature is forgotten (becuase it was 'burned' by the firemen)
The river shows an escape, it is flowing and free. A sybol of a better place where your thoughts can be free to think what they want. And do what they want, like reading.
I believe Montag new he had specific people to find, just there was no definite location. He just neede to get somewhere where the hound couldn't get him. He also wanted to get away from the metropolitan life and escape to the country to get a fresh start. He was going back to the basics.
The river is symbolic of a slow pace of life and change. In the city, everything had been really fast and life had been different. His life was clearly going to change and I think that that is what the river symbolizes.
He knew that others had run away and were making camps along the railroad. He also knew that he was heading towards the river, he knew where it was, it wasn't a coincidence. He found the others by seeing the fire, and they didn't run and hide as usual because they thought he could use their help.
about what ben said--but shouldn't he have known that he would be safe? after all, they did choose to kill an innocent man to keep the audience's attention, and they called of the chase...
The river is symbolic of a sanctuary or someplace that can protect. When fire tries to enter water it is pushed away. The river is an endless guardian of from destruction.
Faber told him there would be other people like him out there somewhere. But i dont think Montag waas purposely looking for him. He just happened to find them.
I think that Montag would of eventually reached a group of intellectuals no matter what because Faber knows what he's talking about. Also, the ending would have been even worse if MOntag never reached Granger's group.
The mechanical dog is just like the people in the society. The people just do what they're told and don't think about it and the hound has to do what it is programmed to do. I think it's important that the hound is mechanical and not real because a real dog would have to be trained and taught to do things, the mechanical hound takes a lot less effort for a "better" result.
I think that Montag had a idea of where he would be able to stop running because of what Faber said, but the fact that he found those men was just luck.
I agree with Christina. I think that he river symbolizes Montag cleansing himself from everything that he has done. I believe that he exits the river in a new light. I think this is Bradbury's way of showing that Montag no longer carries the burdens of the old world. He is a new intellect cleaned of the old world.
The river is symbolic of a fresh start, a way out. The river helped wash the smell off of Montag and brought him deep into the woods where he found some people like him. The river was liberating, but at the same time, Montag was confined to where the river went. It could symbolize thinking you are free, but not as much as you think. It relaxed him because water puts out fire, water is the opposite to it, and Montag just wanted to leave the burning flames.
Like Nate said, water is the opposite of fire, so the river could be putting out the fire and the burning of everything that happend and that Montag had done.It shows a new beggining
Why did Bradbury add in the part about the railroad tracks? He never reached them and they have no other part in the book. Unless they symbolize something.
I have to disagree with what mollie said, I dont think that he knew more people weere out there as much as he just wanted to escape. Yes he was wanting to start new but i dont think he was looking for a new group of people.
I agree with Emily. The River is his new start. He left his burdens in the river. He actually found himself after thta. He realized he didnt love Milldred.
Water is everchanging. Beatty said that the thing that man wanted to create most was perpetual motion and the river is also in motion all the time, just like fire. Montag was sick of fire so water would be where he would go. Also, water and fire are kind of opposites so it shows the change of Montag.
In don't agree with the conversation going on presently. I think that no matter where Montag grew up, he would know that fire is good, fire is what burns and makes us all equeal. I also think that where he grew up does not matter in the story, we are in a different time in his life, a time of change. That is all the author wanted us to know, so that is al we can really be sure of.
I agree with Phillip. I think that Faber told him to run, but he did not tell him to find other people. I think that he was just looking to escape, not for other people.
The pheonix represents rising from ashes, but it went through the samew process its whole life. It is related to the city and society that was created. The intellects he meets said the cycle needs to be broken and that society needs to be reborn, but not make the same mistakes of society. A change is needed.
I think the pheonix represents Beatty because his car was a pheonix and the pheonix symbol was on his hat. Also, Beatty was burned down so that Montag could get away.
I think the phonex sybolises their society. How they have to go through the same thing over and over again. Birth and renewal. Making the mistakes over and over again, how they don't learn that causes them to have to to it over again.
@mmoritz Clarrise was the one who caused montag to change, because he thought that her ideas were out there but he eas willing to look farther to understand someone elses point of view.
I think what caused Montag to change is his own thought. Clarisse sparked his thinking but he never really changed until he began to think about what he was doing. Once he realized what bad things he was doing is when he tried to correct himself and begin to change.
The phoenix represents the destroyed city returning from its ashes and creating a city that has not changed at all and will die the same painful death.
Sideny is right. I assume that he could just drop everything off his shoulders and be himself and relax and start over. Are all these flashbacks real? Even te ones with Clarisse in the treeless forest and such?
The pheonix could represent Clarisse in the story, she is taking idea from the past and making them reborn again in the modern time. Trying to provoke thought in a world where no one listens- exept Montag, so he may also help with the representation.
I think what made montag become new or change is his suspision or wanting to know more then what he just did. After he found out that there was more then just fire and good and pure he wanted to know more and more till he was caught or left the group.
I think that what causes Montag to change is really seeing and believing. Although Clarrise is the one who initially opens his mind, he doesn't discover it until he walks in his house on his own and realizes that he was not happy. So I think initially it is his seeing for the first time that causes him to change.
@Aaron. I agree that it showed the change in the plot, that fire and water are stark contrasts. I think that the river kind of symbolized a new, fresh start. like it was washing away all the bad deeds and whatnot. Do you think its possible that the river, in a way, represented a babtism like thing? like, how in LOF, when piggy and simon died, the water carried them away from the horrible island and kinda 'clensed' them. and in 451 montag was carried away from the 'horrible' city by the river, where he was, in a way, clensed and was able to start over...
Montag was ultimatly changed because of Clarisse. He was always a little different, otherwise she would not have been able to sway him so easily. Before Clarisse, he may have thought some of the same things, but he didn't act upon them. He only acted upon these thoughts once he met Clarisse.
Montag was always the curious one. He had the books at the very beginnning of the book. Not much chanaged him, but what did change had to do with Clarisse, the lady, and faber. She questioned his way of life. She made him think about wether or not he was happy. The lady showed him how impoortant books could be to a person. Faber just reinforced some of these ideas he had.
Mrs. Moritz, Humans have the will and determination to survive even through the toughest times. Our innovative thinking allows us to strive and survive.
It is similar to Bradbury's message that we might thwart certain books, or even all of them, but they will always be there. Someone will keep them alive and known about. This could also be for freedom of speach and cencorship. Cencorship might always be a present issue and speach will always be backed up by the Constitution.
The Phoenix shows that no matter how many books they burn, they still can't burn all knowledge. There are poeple like all the old professors who can keep the knowledge in their heads without needing the actual books.
I'm not sure Montag burning Beatty is like Jack trying to take over the tribe. I think Jack was just power hungry, and Montag just got tired of Beatty picking at him.
@Casey Clarisse is the one who originally asked him if he was happy. He began to question his own happiness after Clarisse asked him about it. Would he have still questioned his own happiness had she not brought it up first?
I think that the Pheonix represents people consistantly wanting change. And no matter how much a thing is destroyed, the idea will always want come back just like the pheonix. Montag and his fellow book lovers want books and yet everytime one is destroyed, there are still other people. Just like a pheonix always coming back to life.
@Courtney- I really don't think Ray Bradburry had anything religous in mind. He seems like a lliberal and futrist man for his time which is frowned upon by the church. I don't think its a baptism, but more so a transformation to a new person.
I agrree with Courtney about washing away wrong things. Also maybe it meant cleansing the soul of guilt for things that person truly did not want to happen.
@Casey I disagree with that because he already knew that there were new and better nthings in the world. His emotions or him "beleiving" was not later till his mind and life were getting mor opened.
I think he always knew part of what they were doing was wrong. He was collecting books even before he met Clarisse. I think she finally got him thinking though when he met her.
I think the woman who burned herself in her house caused Montag to change. Clarisse had a big part and she opened his eyes to the world, but one of the first things he sees after his eyes are opened is the woman being burned. That shocked him even more and changed the way he looked at books and how most people are so unattached to everything,to find Clarisse and this lady who died for things they believe in, that had a huge impression on Montag.
I agree with Victoria because Jack just wanted the power to have it and to be able to brag about it, and Montag was just fed up with Beatty and his power and that is why he burned him
I think that at first Montag didn't really have any body to lok up to so he looked up to Beatty because Beatty was smarter than everyone else. But then he met Clarisse and she showed him what really was right and wrong.
mmoritz - The pheonix could represent Mr. Bradburys idea. Which would be that even though the world is changing there is still one idea that will not die. The idea of progress and knwoledge. He was trying to show the overtake of technology as well as the undertake of knwoledge, never giving up. That is another reason the pheonix may represent Clarisse.
@Emily: She initially got his ideas and thoughts turning, but he discovered it on his home. She never mentioned books to him other than asking if he ever wants to read what he burns. But he chooses to take the boook for himself, and he chooses to go to Fabers, on his own. Every decision he makes is for himself and all the changes initially came from his own head.
@Emily K That is an interesting point Emily. After he burned that woman, his views drastically changed. That image stayed with him and he continued to bring it up throughout the rest of the book.
I think at one point in time Montag looked up to Beatty or saw him as his idol, but as he noticed Beatty's fatal flaws he became less and less so. By the end of the book, the part of Montag that looked up to him was completely gone to the point that Montag was willing to end Beatty's life. Most of us have done something like that, when someone is our role model, but then we realize they aren't the best person to idolize. This is like a magnified version of that.
@molly&mmoritz. I agree about clairesse. I think that the pheniox can in a way represent clairesse. the pheniox didnt really want to burn, it just was burned--and then came back. and in a way that shows that no matter how many times beatty would have said "your an idiot for listening to her and being influenced by her" he would have still been influenced by her nomatter what. becuase in montag's mind, clairesse, in no way, gave him a reason not to be infulenced by her...
@ Matt Do you hear what your saying ofcoure they do everything that the president does reflects what every body else is going to do maybe he didnt look up to him but he was deffinetly pesuaded by him!
I agree with Emily about the woman being burned. Clarisse started the change but the woman who was burned with her books kind of enforced it and led him to believe what was wrong with the society. What do you think would happen if Montag did not witness the lady being burned?
@Casey I agree with the fact that you said everything he did originated in his own mind, but I believe that he may not have done some of the same things had he never spoken to Clarisse. I think he needed someone to spark his mind and cause him to make those actions after he me her.
Montag has the qualities of a leader. I believe that he will have a position of power when they rebuild the city and he may even gain the power to convince the people to bring back the books to gain knowlegde and think again.
I think that those professors kind of look up to him now even though he is the newest one to the group. Maybe they thought he would be a good leader becasue he was a firefighter. I also agree with Nate, he brings up a good point with Moses on the river and now Montag. They are both leaders.
We had all said that there was no relious connection. But I think maybe there is. There are connections to the bible. Which is a book banned very often. Since all books are banned in this book, why not use references from a book banned quite often.
@Courtney He did not leave them behind he more led them because he led them or they startedto follow them just like that reffrence mosas was they beby who whent down the river and he starte a big revelation.
I think that Montag's true personality has come out. He is natural and easy person to follow. I think that becoming a leader such as he is, you have to go through all the struggles to get there, whether it is being chased by a dog, or dealing with your consiance, i think that all of these steps led to him being a leader.
At first, I thought Montag was a follower. He just did what he was told by other people and the government. He stuck by the rules and never questioned anything. When Clarisse made Montag question his happiness, he started to rebel and become the leader.
Ray Bradburry makes a lot of Biblical references, but his writing seems to contradict the Bible. It seems like he isn't relligious, yet he gives sudden hints of the Bible.
@Brent I think that Montag would still have changed but maybe not read books. clarisse changed him but didn't ever say she read books so her death wouldn't entice him to read books, just look at things more from her point of veiw.
In a way Montag is the new Moses. He came on a river and his job is to create anew his society by learning from the past. Also, Moses had to flee his birthplace just as Montag has, but where he fled he found his people. Moses saved his people just as Montag plans to
Mildred was like everyone else. she and they were all the same, they died the same death. mindless people, kinda mindless death. Beatty was different and died a very...special death. Montag was different and would have died a different death too
I thought that Mildred's death was not saddening to Montag in like a lovers way but he was sad because he would not have the chance to help her see the world through different eyes and change her.
I think that Montag cared for Mildred, but he didn't love her. If you spent that much time with someone and lived with them then you would definetly care for them, but it doesn't exactly mean he loved her.
@aaron - I don't think that he added the bible in for religous purposes. I think that he added the bible in because it is a book that has been banned in so many places. He is writin a book about books not being allowed, so he threw bible references from a book banned in many places. He was challenging the system in his own book.
I thought her death was truly symbolic because I think that people always want to die with there family and she died with the family that she loved. I think that the family was the really only way to kill her in this novel because she is the definition of that society with her family.
I did expect Mildred's death after Montag said the thing about "Not sure if he'd cry" I was anticipating that it would show whether he would or not. It confirmed that she loved her electronics and way of life way more than she ever has or will love Montag and he loves his beliefs more than her.
I think he still loved her in his own way, but he still loved her. He wanted to save her. Maybe Mildred loved him to in a way. She did miss some of the books behind the bush, maybe she did that on purpose, maybe she knew he would come back.
I expected Montags reaction to excalty how it was. He said at first he had no sadness abou tit. He doesnt care about her death at first but then after taking it all in for a while he realizes he does care. He had someaffection for her but not enough to make a huge difference in his life. I think the reason he didnt feel the pain at first was beacuse she had betrayed him by turning him in.
I expected Mildred to die in the end. She was really only obsessed with the family and the parlor walls. It confirmed that she really did not care about Montag when she left the house with bags. Montag did have some emotion for her at the end but not as much as a husband should have for a wife.
I expected Montag's reaction to Mildred's death. Even though they had slight connections early on, he definately betrayed him when she called Captain Beatty. As a result to her calling the fire department, I expected her death, as kind of a consequince.
I found her death very surprising because I thought that Montag lived in the strongest nation and that there was no threat to its citizens; however, I was not surprised that she was so caught up in talking with the relatives that she didn't even realize it. I also found it interesting how he could see what happened. I think Mildred's death is symobolic of the old society dying
I agree with Emily. Throughout the whole book, Montag was trying to educate Mildred- the books, the poetry, ect. He wanted to change her to not follow the crowd like everyone else, but, because of her death, he could no longer do that. Maybe he was just sad for her sake in the respect that she died kind of clueless.
i think that faber might have survived, sense he was on a bus out of the city heading toward another city, so he was just there in the country like montag was.
We will never know if Faber survived. I think that he taught Montag everything he need to and there for I think he is propably dead. He lived to be part of the revolution and he served his perpous by teaching montag.
@mmoritz: I'm not sure if Faber survived. I hope he did. He might of gotten on an earlier bus and got out of the town in just enough time to save himself and the book.
If Faber survives that could represent books coming back alive. If Montag can escape and hopefully Faber escape out of a criticizing society, maybe books can rise from the ashes. (pun intended)
In this ending, it seems as though the intellects survived. He was definitly an intellect, so i believe that he found some way to get out. Only those who were clueless, like Mildred, died. Faber must have found some way to survive.
I think that Faber kind of resembles Piggy in a way because he is a very smart man is important to Montag and if he died Montag might be a little lost kind of like Ralph
I think that there is a chance that Faber was part of this group and Faber pointed Montag in the direction of the group. I think Montag may be a replacement for Faber
I think that a lot of people knew about the camp. They all knew that they had run away, they just might not have known where it was, or who was in it. The men in the camp even said people knew about it, but they just don't care enough about them to go and find them.
@casey. the way that granger's grandfather died after he had taught granger so much and given the world so much is similar to faber and montag. with faber, he had taught montag what he knew and given the world something, through what montag will have the potential to be. so maybe it is faber's time to die...
I also think Faber needs to live because he has the possibly only remaining copy of the Bible. That book is important to most of society, and none of the people Montag met in the country knew the Bible or memorized it.
@mmoritz I do not think that it would have mattered. Granger told them that they should not think of themselves as important individually. The society will rebuild itself without him.
I agree with Ben, i think without Clarise, Montag would have never fully commited to questioning himself and his beliefs. Yes he was taking books, but I don;t think he would have ever read them, leading to all the other things he did.
I definitly agree with Mollys. Montag obviously had these thoughts before, he did steal books before. I don't believe that he would've done anything with them had Clarisse not made him think. He needed that extra little push before he was going to do anything.
I agree with Liz. I think Montag wasn't sure what he believed in and Clarisse was the spark that set (inside of him) the views of the current society on fire leaving room for reading books and deeper thinking.
@ Madeline: I disagree with Faber guiding Montag. I think that montag, would have found that path, it just would have taken longer for him to go down the path that he did.
I think that before Montag met Clarisse felt bad about challenging the system, but meeting her opened his eyes and showed him that other people are thinking the same things as him.
His religion may have changed since he was a child, it could have turned into no religion at all, but he could still reference the Bible without having a religion.
He may have been able to see the world around him turning. He may have seen his friends and family becoming engulfed in the small amount of technology they had. So he figured it would only get worse. It could only get more crazy from here. He knew it would take a long time, thats why he set it so far in the future. He saw the over take coming. And honestly, its already started. Maye he wrote the book as a warning, which we do not seem to be taking. Then books are cut out to "protect" us from warnings like these books.
I found it really interesting how Montag is now a name of a paper company and Faber is now a pencil company. This is symbolic of how Faber had helped "write" Montag's future.
@Casey It might have taken longer for Montag to take action, but if it took longer it might have been too late. Faber was his guiding point, but not his only influence.
I think Montag and Faber guided eachother. Without eachother they couldn't find the way of that path. I think both of them would of taken different paths.
Mrs. Moritz I didn't mention this in the last post but this is the make up for the discussion and the one before was just for the blogging. I think that the mechanical hound doesn't represent fear so much as it does conformity. It only uses the fear it creates to keep people in check but as we saw in the last few chapters Montag manages to defeat it so the it somewhat generates more fear than it deserves. It's "more bark than bite". I think the government also uses this to take the blame for deaths off of the firemen. Instead of fearing the firemen, the general public attributes all of the bad side affects of the government's philosophy to the mechanical hound. I think that as Montag floats down the river and is thinking about the sun burning time, he is coming to the conclusion that the firemen need to stop burning books. He thinks this because he realizes how the sun burns away time, and time is the ultimate killer of people. Books are the only things that keep the memories and thoughts of people alive after the sun has "burnt them away" so if firemen continue to burn books, "everything burns" and no humans survive. Bradbury makes many Biblical referances in his book including Montag floating down the river like Moses did. As Moses floated away from his old life so did Montag. People were confused as to why Bradbury made so many Biblical references when he seemed unreligious. I think that Bradbury used Biblical references to get his point across, which was something extremely new at the time with the Bible, which many people were familiar with. I think the analogy of the phoenix can be applied to Montag but also to the entire society as a whole. As man makes mistakes he realizes them and destrays the old and rebuilds the right way. The phoenix also shows the circuitive nature of society like how history repeats itself. In response to your question of what ulimately caused Montag to change was ironically society itself. Before Montag had met Clarisse he ahd been collecting books. I think it was because of being around them all the time as a fireman and wondering what he was destroying. As Beatty seemed to hint at this happens to most of the firemen. At the end of the book I think that Montag is made the leader because he knows the most. No one in this new society knows what is right because they have next to nothing to go on, however; Montag knows the most about what they shouldn't do. Also near the end of the book is Mildred's death. I semi-expected that she would die because I thought that the old society would end. Mildred represented society as a model citizen. She cared more for her technology than about her himan relationships, especially with Montag and she even turned in her own husband simply because it was the law. When the city died so did Mildred. I agree with you on how the purpose of the mirror factory is to establish each person as an individual but it also goes to show how fragile their individuality is.
i thought this was a very interesting idea. the idea of the sun burning time was a concept that i had never really thought of before, but now that i do i think it was a very good concept!
ReplyDeleteWell I think he meant that more like the sun is "destroying" time and the firemen were destroying things too, but nobody is making things. They only destroy.
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical hound represents terror and represents the death of knowledge and free thinking and how they use there new found technology.
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ReplyDeleteThe mechanical hound represents the control the government has over the society. It shows how easily the government can control the people and instill fear.
ReplyDeleteIn the afterward Bradbury called the mechanical hound his "...robot clone of A. Conan Doyle's great Baskerville beast". (p.172)
ReplyDeleteI think tyhe machanical hound rerpresents what society can become. Instead of being put in jail for a crime, one can be tempporarily paralyzed or rvrn euthanized. It is scary that that is what the worl could become. It also is a form of evil, acting like the henchman to the friemen.
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ReplyDeletethe hound represents society and ufair justice. it, in a way, represents the way things are becuase of its fear but it also showed unjust justice becuase of how it killed without mercy or a oppertunity for the whole "innocent until proved guilty" thing.
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical hound represents suspicion because Beatty sent the hound in to Montag's house to search for what he was hiding
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical hound represents fear and new technology. I shows that they have other things do stuff for them rather than doing it themselves.
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical dog represents horror or feaar in peoples eyes. To show that they should not get out of hand almost like a judge but with no case.
ReplyDeleteSo was the mechanical hound simply there for a punishment of death?
ReplyDeleteThe mechanical dog represents how there is no invinsable(sp) person. If you break a rule the government will find you one way or another and you will be puished. The hound is like the "judge" in court. It desides you fate, which is usually death. Sometimes the felon is just stunned, though. Maybe the hound isn't the fool-proof way of stopping law breaking after all.
ReplyDeleteThe mechanical hound might actualy be trying to represent the take over of the government to the people. The hound is in control. Montag is afraid of the hound - as he bshould rightfully be. the government took away there freedoms and scared them into ignorence, and that ignorence and fear is embodied in te mechanical hound.
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical hound is fear and their way of controlling the society. It controls them by putting fear inside of them, because the hound can kill you, will kill you if you do not follow the law.
ReplyDeleteI think the mechanical dog symbolizes order and a civilized society because he enforces what should be going on in the society. The hound catches criminals who are not obeying the laws like keeping books illegaly.
ReplyDeleteI think the Mechanical hound represents how the society is. It shows how technology has totaly taken over. Also it is the enforcer of the society. It seems to have more power than any of the firemen. The Dog puts more fear in to people than the firemen.
ReplyDeleteI agree with mollie as well. The mechanical hound represents suspicion of the people in the society as well
ReplyDeleteI think that the hound represents law enforcement. It makes people follow the law, and punishes them if they do not. \
ReplyDeleteThe sun creates because it began all life on Earth, so this shows that fire can create. Fire can also destroy, like the fire men burning the books and all the knowledge in them.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the river symbolic of?
ReplyDeleteI think Montag is realizing that no matter what he tries to do to prevent destruction, there will always be destruction because it is just natural. What is unnatural is when fire is purposefully created to burn others and their houses
ReplyDeleteI think the saying that sun burns time gets to the point that every day the sun rises and sets and the sun is like the sore of every thing and when the sun is burning in the sky that time is passing by. I dont think he was refering to the fire fighters at all.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag knew that he had to leave the city, and go away but showing up with the people was just lucky.
ReplyDeleteFaber told Montag to go down the river and that there were old professors there that would take care of him.
ReplyDeleteI think that it was a coincidence that Montag ran other intellectual people. Its not like he had the longitude and latitude coordinates of some clan of book clubs
ReplyDeleteMontag knows where he's going because Faber tells him to follow the tracks and find the other people.
ReplyDeleteI think Montag was just heading away and trying to get to the safest place possible
ReplyDeletein a way, sun burns time, becuase the sun moves as the time moves on. and eventually time is forgotten (becuase it was 'burned' by the sun) as liturature is forgotten (becuase it was 'burned' by the firemen)
ReplyDeleteThe river symbolizes baptism. It is kind of like Montag is cleansing himself of the past life he lead in the society of fahreheit 451.
ReplyDeleteThe river shows an escape, it is flowing and free. A sybol of a better place where your thoughts can be free to think what they want. And do what they want, like reading.
ReplyDeleteI believe Montag new he had specific people to find, just there was no definite location. He just neede to get somewhere where the hound couldn't get him. He also wanted to get away from the metropolitan life and escape to the country to get a fresh start. He was going back to the basics.
ReplyDeleteThe river is symbolic of a slow pace of life and change. In the city, everything had been really fast and life had been different. His life was clearly going to change and I think that that is what the river symbolizes.
ReplyDeleteThe river is symbolic of a path or a way to go. Almost like his guide to nowhere but everywhere.
ReplyDeleteThe river is symbolic of a path out of his past life, the river leads him to a better, new life, with many new possiblities.
ReplyDeleteHe knew that others had run away and were making camps along the railroad. He also knew that he was heading towards the river, he knew where it was, it wasn't a coincidence. He found the others by seeing the fire, and they didn't run and hide as usual because they thought he could use their help.
ReplyDeleteabout what ben said--but shouldn't he have known that he would be safe? after all, they did choose to kill an innocent man to keep the audience's attention, and they called of the chase...
ReplyDeleteThe river is symbolic of a sanctuary or someplace that can protect. When fire tries to enter water it is pushed away. The river is an endless guardian of from destruction.
ReplyDeleteFaber told him there would be other people like him out there somewhere. But i dont think Montag waas purposely looking for him. He just happened to find them.
ReplyDeleteMontag is just trying to escape his life of crime. He wants to start a new life without any guilt haunting him.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag would of eventually reached a group of intellectuals no matter what because Faber knows what he's talking about. Also, the ending would have been even worse if MOntag never reached Granger's group.
ReplyDeleteThe mechanical dog is just like the people in the society. The people just do what they're told and don't think about it and the hound has to do what it is programmed to do. I think it's important that the hound is mechanical and not real because a real dog would have to be trained and taught to do things, the mechanical hound takes a lot less effort for a "better" result.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag knew that there were others out there that were intellingent, I just don't think he actually intended on running into them.
ReplyDeletedidn't faber say something about the convicts or on-the-run outlaws that travel the rails, and he sugested to Montag to meet up with them?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nate Kisla about the contrast of fire to water. It shows the complete transformation in the plot.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag had a idea of where he would be able to stop running because of what Faber said, but the fact that he found those men was just luck.
ReplyDeleteYes sidney is right. He was very relaxed when going down the river which led to him remembering when and where he and Mildred met.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Christina. I think that he river symbolizes Montag cleansing himself from everything that he has done. I believe that he exits the river in a new light. I think this is Bradbury's way of showing that Montag no longer carries the burdens of the old world. He is a new intellect cleaned of the old world.
ReplyDeleteThe river is symbolic of a fresh start, a way out. The river helped wash the smell off of Montag and brought him deep into the woods where he found some people like him. The river was liberating, but at the same time, Montag was confined to where the river went. It could symbolize thinking you are free, but not as much as you think. It relaxed him because water puts out fire, water is the opposite to it, and Montag just wanted to leave the burning flames.
ReplyDeleteI also think the river can sybolism more then one thing. Taking him to a new place, symbolising the path of his life taking him some place better.
ReplyDeleteLike Nate said, water is the opposite of fire, so the river could be putting out the fire and the burning of everything that happend and that Montag had done.It shows a new beggining
ReplyDeleteI Don't agree with Sidney because his whole life he had no responsibility. Then Clarisse opened his eyes.
ReplyDeleteWhy did Bradbury add in the part about the railroad tracks? He never reached them and they have no other part in the book. Unless they symbolize something.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with what mollie said, I dont think that he knew more people weere out there as much as he just wanted to escape. Yes he was wanting to start new but i dont think he was looking for a new group of people.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily. The River is his new start. He left his burdens in the river. He actually found himself after thta. He realized he didnt love Milldred.
ReplyDeleteWater is everchanging. Beatty said that the thing that man wanted to create most was perpetual motion and the river is also in motion all the time, just like fire. Montag was sick of fire so water would be where he would go. Also, water and fire are kind of opposites so it shows the change of Montag.
ReplyDeleteWhat, ultimately caused Montag to change? In the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Victoria R. said. The river can represent turning things around. To fix his life.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with shaffer. he did reach them and he had some premonition that Clarisse had walked them before he had arrived.
ReplyDeleteThe phoenix represents the past of the world. it represents how in the past a society is born and then crumbles and is then born again.
ReplyDeleteIn don't agree with the conversation going on presently. I think that no matter where Montag grew up, he would know that fire is good, fire is what burns and makes us all equeal. I also think that where he grew up does not matter in the story, we are in a different time in his life, a time of change. That is all the author wanted us to know, so that is al we can really be sure of.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Phillip. I think that Faber told him to run, but he did not tell him to find other people. I think that he was just looking to escape, not for other people.
ReplyDeleteThe pheonix represtents Montag in a way. The fire has burned up his previous life and out of the fire comes a new Montag.
ReplyDeleteThe railroad tracks maybe represent escaping society and the start of a new life. It is one way of dealing with problems.
ReplyDeleteThe pheonix represents rising from ashes, but it went through the samew process its whole life. It is related to the city and society that was created. The intellects he meets said the cycle needs to be broken and that society needs to be reborn, but not make the same mistakes of society. A change is needed.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of how often or how harshly a Phoenix is burned, it will always remain. How is this applicable to Bradbury's overall message?
ReplyDeleteI think that the curiosity that Clarise instiled in Montag is what caused Montag to change his beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI think the pheonix represents Beatty because his car was a pheonix and the pheonix symbol was on his hat. Also, Beatty was burned down so that Montag could get away.
ReplyDeleteI think the phonex sybolises their society. How they have to go through the same thing over and over again. Birth and renewal. Making the mistakes over and over again, how they don't learn that causes them to have to to it over again.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteClarrise was the one who caused montag to change, because he thought that her ideas were out there but he eas willing to look farther to understand someone elses point of view.
I think what caused Montag to change is his own thought. Clarisse sparked his thinking but he never really changed until he began to think about what he was doing. Once he realized what bad things he was doing is when he tried to correct himself and begin to change.
ReplyDeleteThe phoenix represents the destroyed city returning from its ashes and creating a city that has not changed at all and will die the same painful death.
ReplyDeleteSideny is right. I assume that he could just drop everything off his shoulders and be himself and relax and start over. Are all these flashbacks real? Even te ones with Clarisse in the treeless forest and such?
ReplyDeleteThe pheonix could represent Clarisse in the story, she is taking idea from the past and making them reborn again in the modern time. Trying to provoke thought in a world where no one listens- exept Montag, so he may also help with the representation.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it compares to Jack because Jack never feels bad when he does violent things and Montag feels really bad after he kills Beatty.
ReplyDeleteI think what made montag become new or change is his suspision or wanting to know more then what he just did. After he found out that there was more then just fire and good and pure he wanted to know more and more till he was caught or left the group.
ReplyDeletecorrection to my last post. Not clarisse. Mildred
ReplyDeleteI think that what causes Montag to change is really seeing and believing. Although Clarrise is the one who initially opens his mind, he doesn't discover it until he walks in his house on his own and realizes that he was not happy. So I think initially it is his seeing for the first time that causes him to change.
ReplyDelete@Aaron.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it showed the change in the plot, that fire and water are stark contrasts. I think that the river kind of symbolized a new, fresh start. like it was washing away all the bad deeds and whatnot.
Do you think its possible that the river, in a way, represented a babtism like thing? like, how in LOF, when piggy and simon died, the water carried them away from the horrible island and kinda 'clensed' them. and in 451 montag was carried away from the 'horrible' city by the river, where he was, in a way, clensed and was able to start over...
Montag was ultimatly changed because of Clarisse. He was always a little different, otherwise she would not have been able to sway him so easily. Before Clarisse, he may have thought some of the same things, but he didn't act upon them. He only acted upon these thoughts once he met Clarisse.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ben and how Montag and Jack went through contrasting changes.
ReplyDeleteMontag was always the curious one. He had the books at the very beginnning of the book. Not much chanaged him, but what did change had to do with Clarisse, the lady, and faber. She questioned his way of life. She made him think about wether or not he was happy. The lady showed him how impoortant books could be to a person. Faber just reinforced some of these ideas he had.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz,
ReplyDeleteHumans have the will and determination to survive even through the toughest times. Our innovative thinking allows us to strive and survive.
I agree with Emily. She said that the phoenix represents Montags life and how he has been burned and a new life is coming out of the old one.
ReplyDeleteIt is similar to Bradbury's message that we might thwart certain books, or even all of them, but they will always be there. Someone will keep them alive and known about. This could also be for freedom of speach and cencorship. Cencorship might always be a present issue and speach will always be backed up by the Constitution.
ReplyDeleteThe Phoenix shows that no matter how many books they burn, they still can't burn all knowledge. There are poeple like all the old professors who can keep the knowledge in their heads without needing the actual books.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure Montag burning Beatty is like Jack trying to take over the tribe. I think Jack was just power hungry, and Montag just got tired of Beatty picking at him.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteClarisse is the one who originally asked him if he was happy. He began to question his own happiness after Clarisse asked him about it. Would he have still questioned his own happiness had she not brought it up first?
I think that the Pheonix represents people consistantly wanting change. And no matter how much a thing is destroyed, the idea will always want come back just like the pheonix. Montag and his fellow book lovers want books and yet everytime one is destroyed, there are still other people. Just like a pheonix always coming back to life.
ReplyDelete@Courtney- I really don't think Ray Bradburry had anything religous in mind. He seems like a lliberal and futrist man for his time which is frowned upon by the church. I don't think its a baptism, but more so a transformation to a new person.
ReplyDeleteYes Sidney, i think that before everything Montag did loook up to Beatty. He and Beatty were friends (sort of).
ReplyDeleteI agrree with Courtney about washing away wrong things. Also maybe it meant cleansing the soul of guilt for things that person truly did not want to happen.
ReplyDeleteI don't think montag looked up to Beatty. Do governers look up to the President. No! most disagree
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI disagree with that because he already knew that there were new and better nthings in the world. His emotions or him "beleiving" was not later till his mind and life were getting mor opened.
I think he always knew part of what they were doing was wrong. He was collecting books even before he met Clarisse. I think she finally got him thinking though when he met her.
ReplyDeleteI think the woman who burned herself in her house caused Montag to change. Clarisse had a big part and she opened his eyes to the world, but one of the first things he sees after his eyes are opened is the woman being burned. That shocked him even more and changed the way he looked at books and how most people are so unattached to everything,to find Clarisse and this lady who died for things they believe in, that had a huge impression on Montag.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Victoria because Jack just wanted the power to have it and to be able to brag about it, and Montag was just fed up with Beatty and his power and that is why he burned him
ReplyDeleteI think that at first Montag didn't really have any body to lok up to so he looked up to Beatty because Beatty was smarter than everyone else. But then he met Clarisse and she showed him what really was right and wrong.
ReplyDeletemmoritz - The pheonix could represent Mr. Bradburys idea. Which would be that even though the world is changing there is still one idea that will not die. The idea of progress and knwoledge. He was trying to show the overtake of technology as well as the undertake of knwoledge, never giving up. That is another reason the pheonix may represent Clarisse.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Matt Farley. I don't think Montag really looked up to Beatty, I think that he was more intrigued or afraid of him.
ReplyDelete@Emily:
ReplyDeleteShe initially got his ideas and thoughts turning, but he discovered it on his home. She never mentioned books to him other than asking if he ever wants to read what he burns. But he chooses to take the boook for himself, and he chooses to go to Fabers, on his own. Every decision he makes is for himself and all the changes initially came from his own head.
I agree with Aaron, I don't think that Ray had any real religous intentions in the book. The river represents a new start.
ReplyDelete@Emily K
ReplyDeleteThat is an interesting point Emily. After he burned that woman, his views drastically changed. That image stayed with him and he continued to bring it up throughout the rest of the book.
I think at one point in time Montag looked up to Beatty or saw him as his idol, but as he noticed Beatty's fatal flaws he became less and less so. By the end of the book, the part of Montag that looked up to him was completely gone to the point that Montag was willing to end Beatty's life. Most of us have done something like that, when someone is our role model, but then we realize they aren't the best person to idolize. This is like a magnified version of that.
ReplyDelete@molly&mmoritz.
ReplyDeleteI agree about clairesse. I think that the pheniox can in a way represent clairesse. the pheniox didnt really want to burn, it just was burned--and then came back. and in a way that shows that no matter how many times beatty would have said "your an idiot for listening to her and being influenced by her" he would have still been influenced by her nomatter what. becuase in montag's mind, clairesse, in no way, gave him a reason not to be infulenced by her...
@ Matt
ReplyDeleteDo you hear what your saying ofcoure they do everything that the president does reflects what every body else is going to do maybe he didnt look up to him but he was deffinetly pesuaded by him!
Do you think that Faber got out of town before it was hit by a bomb? Or was he killed and the Bible burned?
ReplyDeletewait, did he leave behind the other men? i dont understand...or did he just become the leader?
ReplyDeleteMontag is used to following other people, he doesn't know what to do when other people .follow him
ReplyDeleteMontag seems like he will be a leader and help lead people to rebuild the city better than before.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily about the woman being burned. Clarisse started the change but the woman who was burned with her books kind of enforced it and led him to believe what was wrong with the society. What do you think would happen if Montag did not witness the lady being burned?
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that you said everything he did originated in his own mind, but I believe that he may not have done some of the same things had he never spoken to Clarisse. I think he needed someone to spark his mind and cause him to make those actions after he me her.
Montag has the qualities of a leader. I believe that he will have a position of power when they rebuild the city and he may even gain the power to convince the people to bring back the books to gain knowlegde and think again.
ReplyDeletewhen you leave where you don't belong, you find the place where you belong find that others hold you in high reguard for just being you.
ReplyDeleteI think that those professors kind of look up to him now even though he is the newest one to the group. Maybe they thought he would be a good leader becasue he was a firefighter. I also agree with Nate, he brings up a good point with Moses on the river and now Montag. They are both leaders.
ReplyDeleteWe had all said that there was no relious connection. But I think maybe there is. There are connections to the bible. Which is a book banned very often. Since all books are banned in this book, why not use references from a book banned quite often.
ReplyDelete@Courtney
ReplyDeleteHe did not leave them behind he more led them because he led them or they startedto follow them just like that reffrence mosas was they beby who whent down the river and he starte a big revelation.
I think that Montag's true personality has come out. He is natural and easy person to follow. I think that becoming a leader such as he is, you have to go through all the struggles to get there, whether it is being chased by a dog, or dealing with your consiance, i think that all of these steps led to him being a leader.
ReplyDeleteAt first, I thought Montag was a follower. He just did what he was told by other people and the government. He stuck by the rules and never questioned anything. When Clarisse made Montag question his happiness, he started to rebel and become the leader.
ReplyDeleteRay Bradburry makes a lot of Biblical references, but his writing seems to contradict the Bible. It seems like he isn't relligious, yet he gives sudden hints of the Bible.
ReplyDelete@Brent
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag would still have changed but maybe not read books. clarisse changed him but didn't ever say she read books so her death wouldn't entice him to read books, just look at things more from her point of veiw.
@phillip...okay. i understand. i was confused when i read it, becuase he said something about walking alone or whatnot.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think of Mildred's death? Di dyou expect it? Did it confirm to you anything about her?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Aaron. It is wierd that Ray Bradbury's idea is so out there and not very biblical yet he makes so many Biblical references.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with Tori because he definitely did not run the show at the fire station.
ReplyDeleteIn a way Montag is the new Moses. He came on a river and his job is to create anew his society by learning from the past. Also, Moses had to flee his birthplace just as Montag has, but where he fled he found his people. Moses saved his people just as Montag plans to
ReplyDeleteI didn't expect the death, but it assured her character again. She died watching her "family" which was all she cared about.
ReplyDeleteIt took her death for montag to find their connection.
ReplyDeleteI had a feeling that Mildred was going to come back into the story. Good authors don't throw out good characters like that
ReplyDeleteMildred was like everyone else. she and they were all the same, they died the same death. mindless people, kinda mindless death. Beatty was different and died a very...special death. Montag was different and would have died a different death too
ReplyDeleteI thought that Mildred's death was not saddening to Montag in like a lovers way but he was sad because he would not have the chance to help her see the world through different eyes and change her.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag cared for Mildred, but he didn't love her. If you spent that much time with someone and lived with them then you would definetly care for them, but it doesn't exactly mean he loved her.
ReplyDelete@aaron - I don't think that he added the bible in for religous purposes. I think that he added the bible in because it is a book that has been banned in so many places. He is writin a book about books not being allowed, so he threw bible references from a book banned in many places. He was challenging the system in his own book.
ReplyDeleteI thought her death was truly symbolic because I think that people always want to die with there family and she died with the family that she loved. I think that the family was the really only way to kill her in this novel because she is the definition of that society with her family.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Faber survived?
ReplyDeleteI did expect Mildred's death after Montag said the thing about "Not sure if he'd cry" I was anticipating that it would show whether he would or not. It confirmed that she loved her electronics and way of life way more than she ever has or will love Montag and he loves his beliefs more than her.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred died in a respectul way, because she died doing something she loved
ReplyDeleteI think he still loved her in his own way, but he still loved her. He wanted to save her. Maybe Mildred loved him to in a way. She did miss some of the books behind the bush, maybe she did that on purpose, maybe she knew he would come back.
ReplyDeletei think that at the end he imagined her REALLY seeing herself for the first time. the way she saw her 'wildly empty' face.
ReplyDeleteI expected Montags reaction to excalty how it was. He said at first he had no sadness abou tit. He doesnt care about her death at first but then after taking it all in for a while he realizes he does care. He had someaffection for her but not enough to make a huge difference in his life. I think the reason he didnt feel the pain at first was beacuse she had betrayed him by turning him in.
ReplyDeleteI expected Mildred to die in the end. She was really only obsessed with the family and the parlor walls. It confirmed that she really did not care about Montag when she left the house with bags. Montag did have some emotion for her at the end but not as much as a husband should have for a wife.
ReplyDeleteI expected Montag's reaction to Mildred's death. Even though they had slight connections early on, he definately betrayed him when she called Captain Beatty. As a result to her calling the fire department, I expected her death, as kind of a consequince.
ReplyDeleteMatt, Mildred was defiantly not a good character.
ReplyDeleteI found her death very surprising because I thought that Montag lived in the strongest nation and that there was no threat to its citizens; however, I was not surprised that she was so caught up in talking with the relatives that she didn't even realize it. I also found it interesting how he could see what happened. I think Mildred's death is symobolic of the old society dying
ReplyDelete@mmoritz I don't know if Faber survived. Does it really matter?
ReplyDeleteI thik the mirror factory is to establish each person as an individual and allow people to see themselves as they are.
ReplyDeleteI think it's possible that Faber survived because he was going to leave the city, but he might not have left quickly enough.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily. Throughout the whole book, Montag was trying to educate Mildred- the books, the poetry, ect. He wanted to change her to not follow the crowd like everyone else, but, because of her death, he could no longer do that. Maybe he was just sad for her sake in the respect that she died kind of clueless.
ReplyDeletei think that faber might have survived, sense he was on a bus out of the city heading toward another city, so he was just there in the country like montag was.
ReplyDeleteOh Matt--I think it absolutely matters.
ReplyDelete@ Riley- I agree with what you said. I just found his writing style ironic to the ideas in the Bible. It's kind of strange that he did it.
ReplyDeleteWe will never know if Faber survived. I think that he taught Montag everything he need to and there for I think he is propably dead. He lived to be part of the revolution and he served his perpous by teaching montag.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if Faber survived. I hope he did. He might of gotten on an earlier bus and got out of the town in just enough time to save himself and the book.
I agree with Mrs. Moritz about the mirror factory.
ReplyDeleteI think that if Faber did survive he will eventually meet back up with Montag.
ReplyDeleteIf Faber survives that could represent books coming back alive. If Montag can escape and hopefully Faber escape out of a criticizing society, maybe books can rise from the ashes. (pun intended)
ReplyDeleteIn this ending, it seems as though the intellects survived. He was definitly an intellect, so i believe that he found some way to get out. Only those who were clueless, like Mildred, died. Faber must have found some way to survive.
ReplyDeleteI think he is kind of like a recruiter. He pointed Montag in the direction of the camp so does this mean he might possibly know about the camp??
ReplyDeleteI think that it does matter if he survived. He had the Bible and if that was the last copy, it would be gone to. Plus he is important to Montag.
ReplyDeleteI think that Faber kind of resembles Piggy in a way because he is a very smart man is important to Montag and if he died Montag might be a little lost kind of like Ralph
ReplyDeleteI agree with mollys. Faber wouldn't just leave Montag now, he's come so far, unless of course he is dead.
ReplyDeleteI think that there is a chance that Faber was part of this group and Faber pointed Montag in the direction of the group. I think Montag may be a replacement for Faber
ReplyDeleteI think that a lot of people knew about the camp. They all knew that they had run away, they just might not have known where it was, or who was in it. The men in the camp even said people knew about it, but they just don't care enough about them to go and find them.
ReplyDeleteI think what Matt meant was that it doesn't matter if Faber is dead because the book is over, so who cares????????????????????
ReplyDelete@casey.
ReplyDeletethe way that granger's grandfather died after he had taught granger so much and given the world so much is similar to faber and montag. with faber, he had taught montag what he knew and given the world something, through what montag will have the potential to be. so maybe it is faber's time to die...
I also think Faber needs to live because he has the possibly only remaining copy of the Bible. That book is important to most of society, and none of the people Montag met in the country knew the Bible or memorized it.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz I do not think that it would have mattered. Granger told them that they should not think of themselves as important individually. The society will rebuild itself without him.
ReplyDeleteMontag wouldn't have run into Faber with out Clarisse. Because he never would have started to think.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteDoesn't the mentor character usually die? And then the hero has to figure it out on their own to kind of grow intellectually.
I think that Montag probably had thoughts to do things before he met Clarisse, but meeting her and her death drove him to actually take action.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ben, i think without Clarise, Montag would have never fully commited to questioning himself and his beliefs. Yes he was taking books, but I don;t think he would have ever read them, leading to all the other things he did.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nathan. Clarisse was the flame that started the fire.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz. Thats a good point about how the leaders need a second hand man. I agree.
ReplyDelete@ Coutney:
ReplyDeleteI said that Faver would have died. Faber was worthless after Montag's misktake.
I think that Emily K brings up a good point. Without the loss of Faber in his life, Montag might not have tried to follow what he was believing in.
ReplyDeleteHadn't Montag already met Faber before he met Clarisse? Maybe it was Faber who got Montag to start taking the books.
ReplyDelete@MMoritz
ReplyDeleteI do agree that every leader needs a backbone like Faber.
@mollys.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think would have happened if clarisse had never died? do you think he would have been droven to take the action he did take??
I definitly agree with Mollys. Montag obviously had these thoughts before, he did steal books before. I don't believe that he would've done anything with them had Clarisse not made him think. He needed that extra little push before he was going to do anything.
ReplyDeleteThere is no way Ray Bradburry has a religion. He talks about topics that no one dicussed in the 50s.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Liz. I think Montag wasn't sure what he believed in and Clarisse was the spark that set (inside of him) the views of the current society on fire leaving room for reading books and deeper thinking.
ReplyDelete@Christina and Nathan,
ReplyDeleteClarisse was a little like the flame that started the fire, but Montag had already poured the kerosene and laid the groundwork.
He can make references to the bible without being Christian i think he just quoted the bible to make it stand out Beatty reads book.
ReplyDeleteOn p. 190 Ray Bradbury says that he was raised in a baptist church.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Faber was the one that made Montag think about challenging the system a little but Clarisse was the little push that sent him off the edge.
ReplyDelete@ Madeline:
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Faber guiding Montag. I think that montag, would have found that path, it just would have taken longer for him to go down the path that he did.
I think that before Montag met Clarisse felt bad about challenging the system, but meeting her opened his eyes and showed him that other people are thinking the same things as him.
ReplyDelete@sidney.
ReplyDeleteDense the Menance. sounds like my cousion's neightbor. meanest old man neighbor around. but i still dont understand how they connect to the book...
I look at Montag as too good of a person to go mad with power. But i could be wrong
ReplyDelete@Emily K.
ReplyDeleteThat is a very good point
His religion may have changed since he was a child, it could have turned into no religion at all, but he could still reference the Bible without having a religion.
ReplyDeletethe people raised outside the city--do you think that they are so tecnology-brainwashed??
ReplyDeleteHe may have been able to see the world around him turning. He may have seen his friends and family becoming engulfed in the small amount of technology they had. So he figured it would only get worse. It could only get more crazy from here. He knew it would take a long time, thats why he set it so far in the future. He saw the over take coming. And honestly, its already started. Maye he wrote the book as a warning, which we do not seem to be taking. Then books are cut out to "protect" us from warnings like these books.
ReplyDeleteI found it really interesting how Montag is now a name of a paper company and Faber is now a pencil company. This is symbolic of how Faber had helped "write" Montag's future.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteIt might have taken longer for Montag to take action, but if it took longer it might have been too late. Faber was his guiding point, but not his only influence.
I think Montag and Faber guided eachother. Without eachother they couldn't find the way of that path. I think both of them would of taken different paths.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz I didn't mention this in the last post but this is the make up for the discussion and the one before was just for the blogging.
ReplyDeleteI think that the mechanical hound doesn't represent fear so much as it does conformity. It only uses the fear it creates to keep people in check but as we saw in the last few chapters Montag manages to defeat it so the it somewhat generates more fear than it deserves. It's "more bark than bite". I think the government also uses this to take the blame for deaths off of the firemen. Instead of fearing the firemen, the general public attributes all of the bad side affects of the government's philosophy to the mechanical hound. I think that as Montag floats down the river and is thinking about the sun burning time, he is coming to the conclusion that the firemen need to stop burning books. He thinks this because he realizes how the sun burns away time, and time is the ultimate killer of people. Books are the only things that keep the memories and thoughts of people alive after the sun has "burnt them away" so if firemen continue to burn books, "everything burns" and no humans survive. Bradbury makes many Biblical referances in his book including Montag floating down the river like Moses did. As Moses floated away from his old life so did Montag. People were confused as to why Bradbury made so many Biblical references when he seemed unreligious. I think that Bradbury used Biblical references to get his point across, which was something extremely new at the time with the Bible, which many people were familiar with. I think the analogy of the phoenix can be applied to Montag but also to the entire society as a whole. As man makes mistakes he realizes them and destrays the old and rebuilds the right way. The phoenix also shows the circuitive nature of society like how history repeats itself. In response to your question of what ulimately caused Montag to change was ironically society itself. Before Montag had met Clarisse he ahd been collecting books. I think it was because of being around them all the time as a fireman and wondering what he was destroying. As Beatty seemed to hint at this happens to most of the firemen. At the end of the book I think that Montag is made the leader because he knows the most. No one in this new society knows what is right because they have next to nothing to go on, however; Montag knows the most about what they shouldn't do. Also near the end of the book is Mildred's death. I semi-expected that she would die because I thought that the old society would end. Mildred represented society as a model citizen. She cared more for her technology than about her himan relationships, especially with Montag and she even turned in her own husband simply because it was the law. When the city died so did Mildred. I agree with you on how the purpose of the mirror factory is to establish each person as an individual but it also goes to show how fragile their individuality is.
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