Thursday, February 4, 2010

Per. 4 Final Little Brother Fishbowl/Liveblog Discussion

108 comments:

  1. I believe in the book it said that what the xnetters were doing were "raising eyebrows" all around the country in different cities and states.

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  2. A common theme this semester was challenging the system. How does Marcus challenge the system and what really is the system?

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  3. I think that all the cities already have upped their security, but his actions will make it better and better.

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  4. I Think that marcus's actions will change the type of security in the cities. The cities were unaware of there lack of security. It's not that they need more it's that they need better security. The government must expect more of teenagers than what they thought the previous capabilities were.

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  5. The system is the people who control the majority. They are not always bad but the are the contollers.

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  6. The other cities want to improve the security because they now know that a teenager can do all this stuff. The citizens think they can do what Marcus did because he is only a teenager.

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  7. I think other large cities the people of them will be the ones effected. the people will see what kids can do with tecnology and like what brandon said, people wont underestimate the teenagers

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  8. Everyone in a position of authority in the books was kind of assuming that no one was as smart as them and therefore couldn't change anything. Which was a huge mistake!

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  9. @andy...Marcus, and this book, was probably the book this semester where the protaginist most directly targeted and challenged the system. He did, in a lot of ways, practically say that he was challenging the system and wanted to take down the goverment...

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  10. What do you think will happen to society now that Marcus has overthrown the DHS? Do you think they will rebel against all kinds of security?

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  11. I think that the actions of people in other cities would depend on how much their security has changed. If their security is as high as it is California then I think they would admire Marcus's actions, but if their security wasn't as high it might be hard for them to understand what he was doing and why he was doing it.

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  12. @courtney...I dont think that Marcus really wanted to take down the govermont, I think that he really wanted to take down the DHS.

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  13. I think Marcus can spark ideas to rebel against all kinds of security because he can now teach people how to do it.

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  14. I think that that is a definite possibility annag2013. I think that the people who were paranoid about the terrorists attacking again could very well be paranoid about security systems taking over.

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  15. @Maddie-
    As they said in the book, there is alsways going to someone smarter than you, no matter how smart you are.

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  16. @Madeline

    The goveremnt put all their smarts into this, only they went around it a very direct way - such as putting up cameras, doubleing and tripling police forces; whereas Marcus indirectly targeted the goverement. so they used two different teniques...

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  17. @ Anna

    I don't think that They will rebel against all kinds of security. Marcus and his friends know and understand that some security is there for a good reason. Also to rebel against all security would never work because at some point, there will be a system that they can't beat.

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  18. I agree with Mollys. People usually don't get invovled unless they are directly effected themselves. If you live in Iowa, and something happens in San Frnacisco, it will most likely just cause some gossip about what is going on or worry for relatives that live there.

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  19. I think that it was kind of crazy how Darryl was held captive for so long. It makes me wonder why they were so suspitious (sp) of him...

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  20. I don't thihnk that Daryl will ever recover mentally. He has suffered too much trauma and he will never be able to forget it.

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  21. @tannerw

    Why would Maucus teach people how to get around security. The reason that he did that was because the security system was corrupt and needed changing. If nothing is wrong, why do people need to know how to take down the countries security?

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  22. I believe that now that the DHS has been exposed and overthrown that if the government or any other organization tried to do the same thing as the DHS they would not be successful as the public would fight back.

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  23. @andy
    Marcus wanted to take down authority, that's what i meant.

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  24. I agree with Reed. I don't think the government will try to establish anything like the DHS again but if they did I think that the public would refuse it immediatley.

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  25. I think that they will rebel against all kinds of security because they know what will happen if any of their rights are taken away for security, so they will do anything to stop this from happening again.

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  26. @courtney

    Did marcus want to take down all authority or just the DHS?

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  27. the vamp mob isn't an act of terrorism but it is in the views of people older than 25 because there are a bunch of *teenagers* dressed as creepy goth vampire kids. the people see this as a way to scare others and to terrorize them.

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  28. I think other branches, instead of the DHS, won't try the same thing as the DHS, but try something that does the same thing in a different way.

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  29. @mollys

    I agree. I guess it's kinda like when a soldier comes back from war; they can heal physically and they can heal mostly mentally, but he is probably going to still wake up in the middle of the night with a nightmare.

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  30. @ Reed
    The DHS went above and beyond there authority and so I do not think that any other organizations would go beyond that. They have proven that government security is bad and it would be pointless to try so I do not think they will have to deal with it.

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  31. The vampmob just showed that the DHS has gone too far because they stop kids who are just trying to have fun. I don't know why a bunch of people pretending to be vampires would relate to terrorism or why the DHS would think that they were terrorists.

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  32. Evan

    How is the VampMob an act of terrorism. They innitally didn't want to cause terror. They wanted to cause confusion. But instead, all the regular commuters panicked and caused a frenzy.

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  33. @Madeline

    It was all a mystery concerning what happened to Darryl. It really doesn't make sense that they just let Marcus go and then kept him. I think that because he just "vanished" for so long created some supicion that the DHS believed him to be a terrorist. Darryl will always be affected by his experience in prision, and will always remember it and act differently because of that.

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  34. What really made me angry was why "severe haircut lady" was let off for what she did. Does this hint that the government manipulated her trial meaning that the government set-up and ran the DHS?

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  35. I agree with Brent, different security branches probably won't do the exact same thing the DHS did, but try the same idea..

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  36. I agree with how Emily said that teenagers can be too trusting. I mean, I'm one of those people that I will trust you until you do something to betray my trust, but I know when things are too fishy and I need to make someone earn my trust instead of just giving it away.

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  37. Andy

    The VampMob did create confuse and chaois, but I think most the people there knew they were rebelling against the government and that there was a bigger point to the game. It might not have been their goal at first to create terror, but in the end that is what they did.

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  38. I think that severe hair cut ladies court case was manipulated and that she was sent to Iraq to make it look like she was being punished even though she really wasn't.

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  39. @annag

    The reason that the DHS kept Darryl is because if he came home saying that he'd been lost for 3 weeks, people would kind of wonder. The DHS kept him so long because they didn't want word of what is going on at Treasure Island to get out.

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  40. @ Molly
    Yes they were just trying to have fun but:
    -They were causing a public disruption
    -Caused panic throughout the plaza by pretending to be gassed
    -and they did not disperse when ordered to

    I'm not saying it's morally right what the DHS/government did but they were technically breaking the law.

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  41. Emily is right, we all, as in teenagers, put to much trust in others,we need to be positive the person is trustworthy before we do anything stupid.

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  42. At ANDY-
    The vamp mob was supposed to be in good fun and helpful to Marcus but it did not matter. According to the definition of Terrorism which is to cause chaos, Marcus fault in the lines of that. He caused a great deal of chaos at the civic center. He may not have had the intent of causing terror but that is what happened. He talked about seeing the business people running away very quickly because they were scared, so I think it was an act of terror without the intent!

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  43. @annag

    so is it considerd terrorism if the act of creating terror is accendental?

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  44. i don't think the Marcus and Winston got what they ultimately wanted. Winston didn't even come close to getting rid of the rule over his nation and ended up with the opposite and loved big brother. Marcus got his friends free but he never fully saw the DHS ruined and gone. bad haircut lady got let off easy and so did lots of other DHS members.

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  45. Reed, you propose a good question. What I think happened was that the government tried to make the atrocities that severe hair cut lady performed seem less awful so that the government looks like they didn't do anything completely awful

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  46. @Ben

    I agree with you. The severe haircut lady's trial probably was set up with DHS sympathsizers (maybe including the president?. They might have not even sent her to Iraq for all we know.

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  47. The government probably supported what the DHS was doing because they didn't step in and tell them to stop. Also, the DHS members were let off easy.

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  48. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  49. I like the idea of the people in the DHS becoming "un-people" or changed. It seems more like the witness protection program, though than un-person.

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  50. I agree that people that are involved in the government get off easy like the severe haircut lady. Yeah anna. We aren't really sure if she was sent there.

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  51. @ Anna,
    I agree with you. After seeing the video of the presidents right hand man acting like a jurk with DHS, so you know that the government is corrupt which is why Marcus is trying to get people to vote for a better, less corrupt Government.

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  52. @andy

    When it comes down to it, accidental or not, they created terror. They will still have to be punished for what they did.

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  53. At least the government isn't completely erasing the history of what the DHS did like in 1984.

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  54. annag

    But is that considerd terrorism?

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  55. @ Mitch
    So do you think that the DHS and the government are the same thing? Was San Francisco a trial of what they are planning for the whole country?

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  56. @andy

    Yes, I think it is terrorism. They still had the same results, whether they planned it before hand or if it was on impulse.

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  57. What effect did Darryl have on the book?

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  58. @Brent
    The DHS probably went behind the goverments back, but there had to have been a point where they realized what was going on, and then that it was wrong. So there was probably a line that was crossed where the goverment when from innocent to supporting because they were not stopping it.

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  59. I think that if Marcus didn't try to convince so many people to do things they would have gotten in a lot less trouble... but the DHS would still be standing, so it was a good thing and a bad thing.

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  60. I definantly agree with Anna. No matter what, on an impulse or careful planning, what they did is considered terrorism. Causing chaos, fear, panic.

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  61. Annag

    So if you saw a giant spider and ran away freaking out and , without knowing it, caused a riot of people running and screaming. Would you be a terrorist for "causing" such terror and confusion?

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  62. Reed, the DHS is a branch of the government but the government didn't realize what the DHS was doing so its a slimy subject. The government is fighting for security but they don't have security within their own government. What an irony.

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  63. @ Casey
    Darryl, I believe represented the innocent people in the book that could be harmed by a government over doing security. Darryl was basically innocent besides knowing Marcus who was basically innocent too.

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  64. @mollys

    That's so true! I guess it's one of those every action has an equal and opposite reaction kind of thing. Although it was good in the long run, there was still terrible consequences.

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  65. @Casey
    I think that darryl has a effect on the book in the way of sparking Marcus' rebellion, and kept refuling it whenever the fire might have started to die down. But besides that, i didn't see much...

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  66. I think that a person would have wanted to rebel later. Although, I think it would have been like 1984 where Winston was ready to rebel but it was too late. Marcus had the only shot to rebel and I think that it was there only chance.

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  67. It doesn't matter who does the terrorizing it is still considered terrorism.

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  68. @CourtneyD

    I think that the government and the DHS were at a time the same thing. Somehow I think that the president was connected with the DHS and allowed the them to do what they wanted. After all, he supported the "punishment" of the severe haircut lady, which wasn't really a punishment at all.

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  69. I disagree Mitch. I think the government knew what the DHS was doing because they were stopping regular citizens everyday for no reason and that made the news. So I think that the government knew what the DHS was doing.

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  70. Brent

    But what if the act of causing the terror is accendintal? Would that be considerd terrorism?

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  71. @Andy

    First of all, the spider is really the source of the terror. Just like in the VampMob, they created terror and the people are them created a chain reaction.

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  72. @Annag
    The governer, though, assumably didn't know but then found out later on. but the question is, how long had he known BEFORE he kicked out the DHS?

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  73. Good point Ben but i don't think the government realized that people were being tortured for no reason. They didn't realize the extent of the problem.

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  74. That could be true, Mitch, but the DHS is funded by the government making me think that they would want to know where their money was going to.

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  75. Good question Courtney. What if the Governer was on DHS's side, rather than the citizens. Maybe he only kicked them out because it got so bad.

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  76. @andy
    I think that even accidental terrorizing still affects people and even if it was an accident it doesn't change the outcome.

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  77. CourtneyD

    That's a good question. He may have known for a long time but then decided to stop it because the DHS was getting carried away. I don't think he could have been so oblivious to not know what they were doing the entire time. There could be many answers.

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  78. annag

    The point is that by you freaking out and running in circles panicking, you cause other people to panic an in notime, there is a giant riot. So, are you a terrorist for causing such panic and confusion.

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  79. Brent

    But is it still terrorism? Could you arrest the person on the charges of being a terrorist?

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  80. @ Ben
    Do you think the government knows where all its money goes? I doubt it with organizations like ACORN in today's modern society. There is a lot of money that is "lost" from today's economy.

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  81. @ andy and annag

    Kind of like shouting fire in a crowded theater...

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  82. So does that make the DHS terrorists?

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  83. Courtney

    That is deliberate. What if by accident, you cause terror?

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  84. @andy
    I dont think you could arrest them because there are terrorists out there that do it purposely, so the police should catch bigger fish.

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  85. @Andy

    I understand that, but if they're was no spider in the first place, you wouldn't be "freaking our and running in circles". It's like a dominos. As for the VampMob, Marcus planned it with the intentions to confuse and hurt the DHS so that he could meet that girl. He was already planning terrorism.

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  86. Thank you Reed.@Ben There are so many organizations within our bureaocracy its hard to follow whats going on. Its not like the Congress know everything about the DHS.

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  87. CourtneyD

    I agree with your example of yelling fire in a theatre, thanks.

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  88. I think there is a line for terrorism. A spider is probably not part of it, even though it causes a panic for some people. Crashing a plane into a building, is on the other hand terrorism. Maybe it is like harming people, not just causing terror or panic, but most spiders aren't going to hurt you.

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  89. @Mitch

    But if you trust somebody enough to give them money for something you don't know about it. Wouldn't you be curious as to where the money goes?

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  90. @Andy

    but it could also be a teenager thinking it might be funny, and not thinking the consequinces through (such as them getting in trouble, a stampede, and possibly a small child being trampled...). This is, in a way, what marcus and the DHS did, they had intitial actions but then they had to keep adding onto them because of the reaction of thoes around them, causing more and more havoc.

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  91. Did Marcus realize that his actions affect people or did he only care about himself and getting Darryl Out?

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  92. Poor Darryl-He loved Big Brother, Coincidence? I think not.

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  93. @Ben- That's the corruption within the government that Little Brother exposes very well.

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  94. Casey

    I believe that Marcus knew that his actions affeced innocent people. But I bleieve that that Marcus thought that that was a small price for taking down the DHS.

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  95. But not well enough. If it was a major part of the book it would of been discussed.

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  96. Mitch all I have to say is that I agree to disagree

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  97. In comparison with 1984 and how Brandon mentioned that Winston did too little too late, Marcus was really only able to do what he did because of the rights he was fighting to preserve. In 1984 the people had little to no rights at all. In Little Brother the United States Constitution gave Marcus enough to freedom to state his views, gather a large crowd, and eventually remodel part of his government. Throughout the book Marcus recites the Declaration of Independence and expresses his love for the Constitution, knowing his rights let him achieve what he did.
    Marcus mentions many times how he is aware of his actions and how it might affect others but whether he specifically thought through the fact that the DHS could eventually become too powerful to stop hardly matters. Yes he is a terrorist in the DHS's eyes (and caused harm and terror in some people), but like Ben had mentioned the system is what the majority of people think. If the general population agrees with Marcus then they can overlook the bad things, just as the majority at first looked over the inconveniences caused by the DHS.
    In the overall view, Doctorow wrote Little Brother in what he hoped to be a more realistic and practical book. In a realistic novel about the US today, the Constitution and peoples' rights have to be acknowledged. These rights, which were non-existent in 1984, saved the people from their own government. These rights also allowed US citizens to become terrorists in the old view, while also allowing for these "terrorists" to change the point of view in such a manner as to make themselves revolutionaries instead of terrorists.
    -Nate

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  98. 先告訴自己希望成為什麼樣的人,然後一步一步實踐必要的步驟。........................................

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