Thursday, February 4, 2010

Final Little Brother Fishbowl/Liveblog Discussion

107 comments:

  1. I think that if the events of little brother did not happen, Marcus would still not believe that the DHS is good because he doesn't trust the officials, just look at the way he treats the administrators at his school!

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  2. I think that the whole situation of becoming captured by the DHS changed his political view. and would have very little motivation to challenge them.

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  3. I think that Marcus, especially at first, would have agreed with his parents. Most of the reason he started off with the Xnet was to find Darryl and get revenge. If he was never captured, he wouldn't have any motivation to take them down. He wouldn't personally have been tortured/interrogated. I think that Marcus would have continued to oppose some school policies and continued to ditch school, but I don't think he would have tried to oppose the DHS. I think he would have been content ditching school and/or hacking the SchoolBooks.

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  4. I believe that Marcus would feel the same way he does about the DHS if he had not been captured because Marcus had been revolting againgst authority before he had been caught. After the bombinb, it was the DHS that set up all of the rules and regulations for society, and Marcus was opposed to all the security they brought about.

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  5. Yeah, agreed. He wouldn't revolt against them but he still wouldn't trust him.

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  6. I believe that Marcus would feel somewhat of the same way. Alex makes a good point, but he still challenges the system. He always has gone against the authority but what happened with the DHS just pushes him way further than just hacking the system, or getting a detention.

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  7. a agree with ethan, marcus already had NO respect torwards authority to begin with.When he ran into trouble with the DHS, it just amplifid his hatred and disrespect.

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  8. I think that he wouldn't have attacked the DHS as much because one of the main reasons he starts doing all of this is because they never found Darryl. However when the DHS starts taking away their right I believe that Marcus having that rebelious spirit would have started the rebellion then or joined one if it was already invented.

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  9. It also created an opportunity for him to insert that little line "now they have to deal with her" and i think that that also led to the comment about how both S.F. and Iraq hate having the DHS in thier country.

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  10. I think that she was let go because like ben said, it keeps us thinking of what will happen. Also like Eric said that probably does hapen.

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  11. Did he really have room to trust anyone?

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  12. I think that Marcus would have still rebelled. Thats just him. If he didn't like the way the government was it would not have mattered if he wasn't caught he still would have tried to go against the DHS. Also, Marcus was very strongly opinionated and I don't think that his father was like Marcus that way. He just thought that it was the duty of the DHS to search people unlike Marcus who would have thought, if he wasn't interrogated, that the DHS shouldn't be able to take away all of the privacy the citizens had. So to answer this question, I definitely think that Marcus still would have gone against the government.

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  13. I don't think that Carrie Johnstone should be let go. From the way the book was written, it doesn't seem like the majority of the military and government knew about what was happening on Treasure Island. It seemed like the DHS was mainly acting on their own. I think that people can be excused if they are acting under the command of another, in some situations. Like when soldiers are commanded by an officer to take part in a mission they don't agree with. But, it seems like the military was not controlling Carrie Johnstone's actions, and so she shouldn't get excused for her crimes.

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  14. Marcus has challenge-the-systemitus. It just comes naturally to him to defy the natural order and to establish his own rules.

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  15. I think that if Marcus went to Arapahoe, he would be considered nerdy and geeky. I disagree with Taylor, when she says that he would be a popular nerd. It doesn't really work that way. I also think that not a lot of people would know about his technology skills and the way he infiltrates the school and government systems.

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  16. ithout the bombing, he wouldnt have been greetedd like a king when he returned to school. he would have still been that weird kid who knows about technology.

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  17. I agree with Lauren. I don't think that she should be let go either. The DHS was not doing what they were supposed to do so she shouldn't just get away with what she did.

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  18. I agree with Lauren. Carrie Johnston seemed to be acting on her own accord, not the military. I don't think the US military would torture their own citizens, even if the threat of being blown up is high.

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  19. Location really does not matter on a persons actions. He really likes computers and just because he lived in Colorado does not mean he wont try to hack or anything, thats just the way Marcus is.

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  20. I also agree with Lauren i don't that that carrie Johnson should have been let go.

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  21. @Suzy: Are you saying the Marcus before the end of the book, or after? If before, I would agree with you.

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  22. @ Christina and Ethan: I know that you both agree that a lot of military personnel get away with their "war crimes" or other offenses, but there are a lot of soldiers who get court martialed and tried in military courts, then convicted. Then they get dishonorably discharged. I agree that it might happen sometimes, but I don't think it happens as much as we are assuming it does. You can get court martialed for much more minor offenses than Carrie Johnstone's, which was torturing children. Also, I think that the Blackwater guards were convicted and discharged from the military. I'm not positive on that, but pretty sure.

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  23. @Adam
    Thats true if he wasnt captured by the DHS he wouldnt be as crazy about finding Darryl. He was totally opposed to security and authority.

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  24. @Ethan, i am talking about the Marcus in the beginning/middle of the book

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  25. The reason Marcus skips is to play the game, he does not skip just to skip.

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  26. @Lauren: Yeah, that's true, but it's not really fair that the one person who caused Marcus so much misery is the one of few that is being let go hands free and sent somewhere else.

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  27. I think that if we used technology like Marcus did, two things would happen. One, I think that we would have a lot less face to face conversations. We would rely on the Xnet even more than we use/rely on facebook today. Secondly, I think that the government would have more of a reason to crack down. If all the kids at Arapahoe were hackers and could hack into school and government systems, I think that government would put in more codes, and start monitoring us more.

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  28. I think if all of us were that smart about technololgy the government would have to find a way to get smarter. I think that things would be a little different but most of our lives probably wouldnt change because like some of the guest speakers that have come in have said, there is always someone smarter. Or someone that figures it out and can do something about it.

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  29. I think that we already use technology like this already in our life. Kids and teens use tons of technology every day and I don't think that a bunch of teens are that "advanced" in the book, it was just Marcus and his friends for the most part, at least that is what it seemed like to me.
    Also, the adults in the book use a lot of technology as well so its not really just the younger generation. So, basically I think that teens use technology basically the same, except for all of the hacking.

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  30. If we all had the abilities Marcus had, our generation would be a smarter one. The secrity and technology would be drastically changed to try and prevent anyone from hacking into the system. If we were all able to have the ability to hack anything, the government would try and make it so that we couldn't. Restrictions would be applied that do not exist today, and that is about the only difference.

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  31. @Suzy: then he would be a techno-geeky-nerdy-odd guy. But Taylor brings up a good point: he's not really smart, he's just technologically savvy.

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  32. Im sure that if the people at our school knew how to hack and phish, then most of us would be like marcus.

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  33. I don't think that we would be tracked if we were more tech savvy, because we would all just hack through those systems. They might try and track us, but we'll find away around it

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  34. @ Ethan: I don't think Carrie Johnstone should be let go either. Sorry if you misunderstood. What she committed wasn't even a war crime, it was just a crime, on US soil, without military jurisdiction. What I meant was that I think that in our society, if her actions got out into the public eye and the media, she would be punished. I think the military would punish her, and I think that she does deserve it.

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  35. The more we learn how to beat the system, the more regulations and restrictions they will try to stop us. And the more they try to stop us the more we learn how to beat the system. It will become an ongoing war.

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  36. @ Lauren, Yeah your right there are more military people caught and honorably discharged than let go like carrie johnson

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  37. I agree with Suzy,
    if we were that tech savvy we would be one step ahead of everyone else so they wouldn't' be able to track us.

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  38. @Lauren: Oh, so that's not a military crime. Ok, thanks for explaining.

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  39. @ Ethan: I think so. I don't think it would be considered a war crime, because it was not during a war, at the location of the war.

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  40. I agree with Canyon. The harder we try to fight the system and the better we get at it, the more the system will enhance and try to prevent us from hacking it.

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  41. I think it really depends on the person that you are. If you were more like Marcus then you would probably be more inclined to take advantage of how low the security is or you could use the technology more effiecently and for school work.

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  42. I think that being smart has different levels. Like he may not be book smart, but is deffanitly computer smart.

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  43. @Lauren: Yeah. Ok that makes sense. No war, no war crime.

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  44. I do think that that is symbolic. I didn't think of it like that, but it makes a lot of sense. The LARPing scene seemed kind of randomly stuck in, but if you look at it as symbolism, it makes a lot more sense. Thanks, Joy.

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  45. I do think that there is some symbolism. Same with Lauren, I never thought of it that way. The oger does seem like the DHS.

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  46. I guess the whole VAMPBOMB thing shows how controlling the DHS is. Imagine being sent to jail for haning out with your friends at the park!

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  47. Lauren
    I agree Carrie Johnstone should not be let go. She was using her powers and not telling the rest of the government what she was up to. Also they don’t want it to look like they had a high ranking official that was going behind their back and they didn't know that Carrie was interrogating/torture the citizens.

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  48. Maybe cory doctrow is someone who does or did Larping. And taylor is right it helps exlain the vamping thing.

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  49. One of the reasons I think the Cory Doctorow spent so much time on LARPing is because it shows the reader some of the "history" between Marcus and Charles. It explains why they hate each other so much, which was important especially in the first half of the book.

    I also like what Taylor said about it being a lead-in to the Vampmob and what Alex and Katie said about it showing Marcus as a kid. I think that its important to remember that he is just a kid like us.

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  50. I think that Doctorow not only put LARPing into the book to lead into VampMob but to also show ho Charles came to hate Marcus and his friends. It was background on Charles and why he has something against Marcus.

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  51. @Max: Book smart and computer smart are practiacally the same thing today but in the book they are so much different. right?

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  52. I agree with Alex. It shows how kids will be kids, no matter how mature they may seem they will always revert back to childish things. LARPing is in the book to show that Marcus and his friends are just goofy teenagers.

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  53. I think he spent the entire chapter on it because it described where the vampmob thing was coming from. Also, it just gave good background on his childhood. I think that When you have background on a person in a book it is much easier to understand why they are the way they are. Also, it was a nice break from the intense part of the book, this chapter was much more light than the other chapters.

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  54. I think that when that sentance was put in the book i believe that it was extremly symbolic. I also agree with Joy that the ogre could be the DHS, the relic could be constitutional rights, and the people is the population of San Fransico. Then when he says the ogre sujagates its people it couldn't describe the book better.

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  55. I think it shows that they still have fun in there lives. How they are still kids.

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  56. I agree with Alex, every one has a little "child" in them, no matter how old they are.

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  57. I think that larping is in there to help explain the Vampmob. Also it explains why Marcus and Charles are like enemys. Charles took away something that Marcus loved, and now they hate each other.

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  58. i agree with alex. Throughout the book you kind of get the allusion that Marcus and all of his friends are full grown adults. It was kind of nice that Doctorrow kind of glanced back and gave the reader a reality check as to how young the kids really are.

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  59. @Max Yeah, that's a good point. Through the smoke and fire they are still kids at heart.

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  61. I think that it was a good ending to the book becuase it represented how powerful the government is and what a large affect it had.

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  62. Darryl was driven to the poing of insanity by continous torture. He was starved, deprived of any nutrients, and tortured to the point of where he became permanently paranoid, he will never come out of his 'shellshock'

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  63. I think that the ending "poor Darryl" is really fitting of the book. It reminds me of the stories of war veterans who come back and they have a really hard times. If any of you have ever read the books "Flags of Our Fathers" it talks about how the veterans who came back from Iwo Jima would cry in their sleep, have such bad nightmares that they would wake up sweating, and evern scream during their sleep. I think that something like this, on a lesser scale must have happened to Darryl. They might have tortured him, but I think what mainly broke him was being alone in a dark, creepy cell without any of his friends and family. For all Darryl knew, he might have been their his whole life. After months, he probably did think he would end up there his whole life. That is pretty much worse than death.

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  64. I think it was an excellent way to end the book because it wraps up why everything was done by the kids.

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  65. Charles was jelous of Marcus and what he did. Marcus had so much fun LARPing and ARGing and Charles just sucked at it and had no fun.

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  66. Change on my last comment:
    If Cory Doctorow was trying to make it a perfect ending though it was a perfect way to end it. And also I agree with Taylor, things wouldn't go back to the way they were before, so it wasn't really "cookie cutter".

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  67. I would like to see the book end something like this...

    Marcus came home one day and saw Darryl on his doorstep. They had an emotional reunion, but then Darryl asks about Van. Marcus, with the knowlege that Van likes him, is troubled and doesn't answer. The End

    By the way, what do you think about the Van-Marcus thing? Does it explain some parts of the book you thought were confusing?

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  68. I didn't think it was the best ending to the book but the ending fits just like 1984, not everything going to be all happy. Darryl was tortured for months and you can't expect him to just come out of it the moment he gets out of captivity.

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  69. Little Brother does kind of follow 1984 and they have similar plots. I think plot might be a little backwards though. Like in 1984, Winston begins challenging the system, meets Julia and then at the end gets tortured in room 101. Marcus was tortured in the beginning of the book. like when they ask for his passwords, that is his own personal torture is having people know his passwords and get into his technology. I think the beginning is Marcus's room 101. Then he challenges the system, and then meets Ange and they challenge the system together.

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  70. I agree with Ben, i think it is possible that the DHS blew up the bridge and that was connected to treasure island with became a prison camp

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  71. @Ethan-
    I kind of figured they had a "thing" at the very beginning because Van seemed to be around Marcus much more than Darryl.

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  72. Darryl is in shock. He will always be in shock. There is hope that he's going to get better, but no matter what, whatever happened in Treasue Island will always be with Darryl. He is scarred for life.

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  73. I think that it would be very unlikely for DHS to have bombed the bridges. And this book has very disimilar aspects of 1984.

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  74. @ Ethan: The Van-Marcus thing is just sad. I think that of everyone, Darryl ends up with such a bad situation. Marcus at least has Ange, and Van didn't seem too traumatized. But Darryl has only his father, who was also very emotionally scarred when he thought he lost his son.

    To make another outside text connection, its like in the movie "Pearl Harbor." Rafe comes back after being away from the main person he loves (like Darryl comes back from being away from the main person he loved, who is Van) and finds that she has already moved on. I think it both cases, that was the one of the main things that made Darryl want to live (like in Pearl Harbor). I'm glad he didn't find out about Van-Marcus. He already dealt with enough.

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  75. @Sandra: I never really payed attention to that, but looking back that's true. Poor Darryl: He gets tortured and he looses the love of his life.

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  76. @Lauren: Yeah. Pearl Harbor is a sad movie. Darryl is fragile enough, and the Van-Marcus thing would probably shatter his will, or what's left of it.

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  77. That’s true "Poor Darryl" is a good way to end story because of what happened to him. He was deprived of food and tortured for days on end. This is like soldiers who o come home from war and have a "shellshock". Darryl was super messed up because of what they did to him.

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  78. About Marcus working for the government: is he sort of doing that already? In the epilogue, it talks about him making videos to convince people to vote. Can anyone clarify this?

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  79. I think that Marcus won't ever work for the government, but more for a better city. He wants more people to vote for better leaders. He doesn't want to work for them, but he wants to make "them" better.

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  80. I do not believe Marcus would ever work for the government- he opposes authority too much. He likes freedom, revolt, and changing the norm and if he worked for the government he would be going against what he was trying to accomplish in the book.

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  81. @Lauren: I'm not sure. The end of the book was kinda unclear about this.

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  82. I agree with kyle. He always wants change for the better

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  83. I agree with Alex about beliefs. I think that people need a really strong, influencing event for them to change their beliefs. For Marcus, I think it was being captured by the DHS. For example, there were soldiers who supported the Vietnam war, and then came back after the war and had a completely changed opinion. I've heard of that happening during the Iraq war.

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  84. Maybe if Marcus thinks he has successfully changed the government then he will work for them.

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  85. Alex and Aarron are right, after you lose trust for something it is extremely hard to gain it back.

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  86. @Lauren-
    I am not sure but it kind of seemed that during the book when he set up all of these X-net things it was almost leading people to the DHS because the DHS kept catching up and catching certain people. I don't think during the book he was intentionally but it seemed like he ended up doing it unintentionally.

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  87. Thanks, Sandra. That clarifies a lot.

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  88. I agree with Christina that once you lose your trust in something you either will never trust them again or it will be a long time before they do start trusting it again.

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  89. I do not believe Marcus will ever be comfortable with the governmnet. The DHS had done too many unpleasant things in his life, and the waterboarding in a way finalized the thought that the governmnet is forever evil.

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  90. I dont think that the Marcus would ever want to go and work with the government becuase. It would be one thing if Marcus was just doing what he did for himself and for his freedoms. But his goal was to take down the government. Since that is the case i couldn't see him every wanting to help build back what he helped to take down.

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  91. @Lauren: I agree. Beliefs are as hard as stone, but they can be sculpted by a skilled sculptor. It takes a lot of energy to change beliefs, but unless that stone is as hard as diamond, a skillful person can change beliefs. Or an event of great importance can shatter the rock, or punch a big hole in there, changing the shape of the rock. The stone is just like a belief. They come in many varieties, each with different strengths. I think Marcus's belief was like Sappire, but then was broken and turned into diamond by the DHS.

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  92. About the torture by the DHS: the America nation is under the Geneva Conventions. I pretty sure that under these conventions, a prisoner of war or any civilian (like Marcus) doesn't have to say anything more than there name, their "rank" in society, and a few other things. Under the Geneva conventions, Marcus does not have to tell severe haircut lady his logins or passwords. That part I'm positive on. The point I'm making his, what the DHS did was outside the Geneva conventions, which means that it was WAY over the line.

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  93. I do agree with the iner circle. The DHS did take it to far with Marcus. He is just a teenager and the DHS really doesn't have any hardcore evidence of him doing something so bad. Its not like Marcus was the person who blew up the Bay Bridge, he just felt that the people in his country were being taken advantage of by the government.

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  94. I think winston wouldnt have enough courage and drive to lead a rebellion in the Marcus did.

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  95. I don’t think that Marcus would work for the government if his life depended on it. He is so totally against him, and he didn't trust or respect them anymore. Even if e does it would take them a long time.

    The waterboarding was to far. The DHS was realy determined to find terorist. Marcus unveiled them for the world to see and he was a threat to the DHS.

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  96. I don't think that Winston could lead a rebellion. He is not a strong enough person to do so. He relies on all the people around him and like Taylor said Winston looks toward someone to lead him where Marcus started the whole thing

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  97. Also, it would be much harder for Winston to lead a rebellion, he is much more supervised than Marcus.

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  98. I agree with Taylor. If Winston had the X-net and abilities that Marcus had, he would not start a revolt. Winston is a follower, he looks for some figure to believe in (O'Brian), and is not capable of starting a revolt himself.

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  99. @Lauren: I thought there was some kind of law that prevented an interrogation without approval. Thanks for clarifying.

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  100. @ Christina: I agree. Winston is not as driven as Marcus. Marcus also has a much stronger and demanding personality.

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  101. I agree with Kyle,
    Winston did seem to be more watched than Marcus.

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  102. I think that even with the Xnet and other things I don't believe that Winston would create it for two reasons. First is that Marcus has that leader mentality and Winston is more of a follower. Second is that in 1984 that Party had way more surveillance of the people as opposed Little Brother where yes they do have surveillance but it is no where near as bad as 1984.

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  103. I dont think marcus was more watched but he wasnt courageous enough to lead anything.

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  104. I agree with Adam, Marcus just likes defy authority so he would have gone against the DHS anyways. However, I think Marcus took it even further because he knew what the DHS was capable of and how they still had Darryl.
    I agree with Lauren, the DHS seemed to be working on their own and they didn’t seem to communicate with the rest of the government, so she should have to pay for her actions.
    @ Christina I honestly think that somehow the government wouldn’t be ahead if we were all as smart as Marcus. Even the government used the xnet because they didn’t have anything better, and they wanted to be on the same page as us. They weren’t ahead but they weren’t behind.
    If everyone was like Marcus I think that the government and schools would give up, they would just be wasting time and effort to stop the impossible.
    I think Lauren makes a good point, its important for us to remember Marcus is just a kid like us, and how it shows the relationship between the two boys.
    @ Zach, book smart and computer smart and not the same at all! You can be able to do anything you want on the computer but not know any history or English. In a way you have to know math and science but in today’s world its less then those two, in order to understand a computer you just have to know them well, that is not book smart.
    I agree with kelly its impossible for him to just “come out of it” and that he will be scared for life.
    I agree with Sam, there is no way Marcus would ever work for the Government and if he did he would just betray it.
    Christina made a good point, Marcus was the stronger person Winston could never get people to follow him.

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  105. I agree with Adam, I think that even if marcus and his friends were not captured by the DHS, Marcus would have still tried to "take down" the DHS. He still felt oppressed by the DHS and he would have wanted to gain his freedom back whether or not he was captured. Just like all of the Xnetters, they were not captured or tortured by the DHS but they still opposed them and fought against them.
    I agree with Lauren, if we used the technology that Marcus uses, face to face and on the phone converstations would become almost non- exsistent which would make people socially akward when it came to being in public. Also the surviellance of the government would increase exponentially. It would give the government more reason to track people, and we would eventually lose more rights.
    I think it is possible that the DHS bombed the bay bridge. The government could have been trying to gain more control over the US and they wanted a reason to do so. It is unlikely that the government had anything to do with it though.
    I dont think that Marcus will ever work for the government or trust the government. Marcus has lost trust for the government and DHS after what they did to him and his friends.

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